Esquif Raven

gumpy · Post by **gumpy** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:55 pm

I bought a Detonator in november that was a leftover, had been sitting out for a year and a half. its now april and the chines are already down to the white (ABS?) layer. maybe two dozen runs on it. so much for curing. guess i'll learn how to repair rx soon. hey kaz would a real heavy layup composite creeker be possible?

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:07 pm

If you're light enough for a Detonator, get a Prelude. It might be time to abandon Royalex, particularly for creeking.

I do think the double chine of some of the Esquif boats and how deep they ride in the water leads to faster scrapping off of the vinyl. I have a Blast that I haven't used that much and it shows more wear than it should.

kaz · Post by **kaz** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:20 pm

Yes Joe, believe it or not, it is. Also, you can repair a composite boat for 20 years and only add 5-10 lbs to it.

JKaz

sganarelle · Post by **sganarelle** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:00 pm

Reading the above about current royalex boats makes me hesitant to try and get a Blast/Detonator.

Is there a year that Royalex became less durable?

gumpy · Post by **gumpy** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:37 pm

here's a crazy thought: someone(not a boater) suggested to me today that i coat the bottom of my boat with rhinoliner or the like.

my buddy has the bed of his pickup coated with the stuff and it seems real tough, might be heavy though. or stick to rocks.

Eric Nyre · Post by **Eric Nyre** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:54 pm

Clarification on Curing:

The outer layer of Royalex is vinyl, it doesn't need a cure time. It will wear off with rocks and scratches.

The next layer is ABS. This stiffens with time.

The middle layer is foam. This stiffens with time.

Last two layers are ABS and vinyl on the inside.

Doesn't matter how old a Detonator is. The chines will catch rocks and scrape the vinyl off. Vinyl is like paint, makes the boat a pretty color and offers some UV protection, but is otherwise not critical.

eddyhops · Post by **eddyhops** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:55 pm

The yellow boat was 2 weeks old, the purple boat is 4 years old.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1647208990

Yeah, the abs firms up some as it ages, but it shouldn't be this flexible brand new.

gumpy · Post by **gumpy** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:05 am

that's a shame, john. total junk.

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:17 pm

Man, that's amazing. What's the story behind the yellow Viper? Did you order it and it came that way? Did Mohawk replace it?

jscottl67 · Post by **jscottl67** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:56 pm

Looked at the video and it looks like there is a deep gouge on that yellow viper?? Not that it should flex like that, but wondering if that is a contributing factor.

keez · Post by **keez** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:00 pm

my abs seem to get weaker with age. need to do more sit ups i guess

eddyhops · Post by **eddyhops** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:14 pm

jscottl67 wrote:Looked at the video and it looks like there is a deep gouge on that yellow viper?? Not that it should flex like that, but wondering if that is a contributing factor.

That was just a black mark on the vinyl.

Here's the looong story/rant-

I contact Mohawk on Monday, 2/16 to place an order a new yellow Viper 11, stripped, hull only. Sam at Mohawk says he thinks they have one, but if not they could get one made and shipped the following week. On 2/17 I receive this email-

“Hi John,

We will have to form you a new hull, which will be done for you at the start of next week. I'll drop you an email when it is on its way.

Regards,

Sam”

Sounds good to me…called Tuesday to verify. They told me it would go out that week (wk of 2/23), that I didn’t need to call them, they would call me with a pro when shipped. Told them I appreciate it, but I’ve had items sit at a dock without a phone call before, so I just liked following up.

The next week, my boat still hasn’t shipped. Most phone calls are answered with “I’ll find out what’s up, and someone will get back with you,” which didn’t happen, which would promt me to call the next day, sometimes multiple times. See, I want to get the boat trimmed & outfitted for ALF, hence the reason I ordered it early. I’ve expressed this to Greg (the owner?) as well.

On 3/5 (Thursday) I get this email-

“John:

Not sure why, that package is still sitting on our dock. It also looks like everything else that was supposed to ship via Fedex Freight this week is sitting right next to it. As soon as I can get a PRO number, I'll send the info on to you.

Greg”

On 3/6 (Friday) afternoon I send this email-

“Greg,

Any word on my yellow Viper shipping?

Thanks”

With no response I call Sam a couple of times, he can’t locate Greg. Friday evening, Greg emails-

“Not seen a PRO number from them yet, but we are usually at the end of the local drivers route so it might just be getting picked up latish today. I'll check again first thing Monday and let you know.”

Monday 3/9, I wait ‘till after midday to start making the calls. Sam is not sure about anything, he insists I talk to Greg… of course most of the time Greg can’t be contacted.

Sam calls in the afternoon and says they’ve just popped & trimmed it and it will ship Tuesday. Now I’m more than confused, and concerned. 6:00 PM, I get this email-

“Dear John

I wanted to let you know that your order shipped today and is due for delivery tomorrow, so you should have time to get it outfitted for your trip..

Your tracking number is:

And the freight company is FedEx. Who did not pick it up until today. It was on the dock since Thursday, but they only picked it up today, hence the conflicting replies from us.

Thank you for your custom and we wish you many years of happy paddling.

Regards,

Sam”

WTF? Does the left hand know what the right hand is doing? No tracking number in the email. Screw it, at least it shipped. At this point I must admit Sam seemed to be trying to stay on the ball & cordial, when I would call he would make apologies for Greg.

Tuesday, the boat is at the Shippers’ dock… a mix up with the freight collect charges, more phone calls… shipping charges adjusted, no apology yet from Greg… but he does say, “You better go pick it up before they change their mind!”

I still don’t know what that meant.

So, after a couple of days cat juggling I get the boat trimmed & outfitted by Friday eve. Cool!

Over the following weekend I took a couple of blows on the boat that I felt through the plastic, and through my knee pads. When I got home the following week I could see slight creases where the tie down straps had been. On inspecting them I found the bottom of the boat, all the way to the stems, to be like a mattress. Frig.

FRIG FRIG FRIKKING FRIG FRIG!!!! (understand, these are euphemisms)

So, I call Mohawk Thursday. Sam is there, no Greg. Tell him the problem. He says he’ll get Greg to call me Friday. Friday, same as Thursday. Monday, after 1:00 I call, and finally talk to Greg. The conversation went something like this-

Greg- So, what’s the problem?

Me- Well, the boat’s too flexible

Greg- (chuckles with disgust) What do you mean, too flexible?

Me- I mean, I’m not sure if the ABS was maybe overheated or cooled too fast or what but it’s so
flexible I can push right in it to the point of creasing it, from stem to stem.

Greg- Humh…

Me- Listen, I can take some video of it if you don’t believe me, right next to my old boat and you
can see the differ—

Greg- So what do you want me to do about it?

Me- Well, I’m gonna need a new boat.

Greg- Okay, send it back to us and we’ll look at it

Me- Well, it has all my trim & outfitting in it

Greg- So take all your stuff out and send it for us to look at

Me- Well, I went through a little trouble with this boat, am I to understand that if I tear it back
down, send it to you, and you decide it’s a bad boat you’re basically just gonna send me
a new hull, and that’s it?

Greg- ‘BASICALLY’ yeah!

At that point, I told him I was stripping it, sending it back and wanted a refund for the hull & shipping. He said fine.

No apologies, no alternative solutions, ridiculously poor customer contact… it was like buying a boat from a fast food joint.

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:31 pm

eddyhops wrote:No apologies, no alternative solutions, ridiculously poor customer contact… it was like buying a boat from a fast food joint.

wow

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:43 pm

This is really sad. And doesn't bode well for all those of us who like Mohawk designs and want them to continue as a source of great whitewater canoes.

fleckbass · Post by **fleckbass** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:47 pm

I have had similiar dealings with Mohawk. I can't look at your video right now at work but i can say my Viper 12 is thin on the bottom, especially in front of saddle. It isn't soft. Their customer service is terrible. Boat was shipped to wrong buyer an then damaged. I can go on about what I feel is misplaced outfitting and the thwart that bent after a couple of months. Hardware practically fell off too.