1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
curious for my own reasons.... Craig
NEED MORE INFO SEE PG#2... thanks!
loaded questions
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
- Posts: 2815
- Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:59 am
- Location: WaUSAu Wisconsin USA North America Earth, etc.
loaded questions
Last edited by Craig Smerda on Tue Oct 07, 2003 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
I can answer some of these. I've only been paddling a year.
1. My first boat was a Mohawk Maxim. I weigh about 235 and am 6'5"... a little top-heavy in smaller boats... I still find the lack of initial stability in shorter boats quite intimidating, although I'm embarassed to admit to that
2. My roll stinks, but I've really only nailed it 5 times, and even those were a little ugly. Yakkers tend to play alot more in holes than OCs and likely have to develop a strong role to get the most out of it.
1. My first boat was a Mohawk Maxim. I weigh about 235 and am 6'5"... a little top-heavy in smaller boats... I still find the lack of initial stability in shorter boats quite intimidating, although I'm embarassed to admit to that
2. My roll stinks, but I've really only nailed it 5 times, and even those were a little ugly. Yakkers tend to play alot more in holes than OCs and likely have to develop a strong role to get the most out of it.
-- Cya
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Joey
i think there tends to be more of a "way of thinking" with ocers. when i first started paddling i paddled open boat. the thing that turned me off of it, was that there were to many ocers out there saying "you cant run that in an open boat." i think there is just a way of thinking that holds open boaters back. thats not to say that all of them are that way, i have certainly met quite a few ocers that can paddle circles around me.once i started paddling c-1, there wasnt really any one to say c-1s cant run that. so i just strated paddling as hard as i could.
as for me i would like to get an oc again one day, but it will have to wait a few years till i have money. the thing that keeps me from paddling them now is that i cant throw ends in every small wave on the river. i guess that too is a "way of thinking"
as for me i would like to get an oc again one day, but it will have to wait a few years till i have money. the thing that keeps me from paddling them now is that i cant throw ends in every small wave on the river. i guess that too is a "way of thinking"
I'll take a crack
A lot of OC 1 paddlers that I know, including many who are better paddlers than I'll ever be, have no interest in being upside down in their boats. They develop a lot of skill in keeping thier boats dry and upright but prefer to swim rather than roll.
I've combat rolled my Outrage a few times but I would like learn from these OC1 paddlers to better keep the boat "high and dry".
As for hole riding, why do it in a boat with a big hole in the top? That's what C1's are for, all the advantages of an OC without the swamp factor. Of course most of my hole riding is just a prelude to rolling practice
Tommy
I've combat rolled my Outrage a few times but I would like learn from these OC1 paddlers to better keep the boat "high and dry".
As for hole riding, why do it in a boat with a big hole in the top? That's what C1's are for, all the advantages of an OC without the swamp factor. Of course most of my hole riding is just a prelude to rolling practice
Tommy
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dgemoets
I've only been boating a short while,but:
1) Don't know. I would like to get a Robson CU-fly though. I think that would be a fun boat. What holds me back? - $$$$$
2) don't know. I've only C-1'd so far.
3) I'd like to see more boats like the Pryahna(?) Spanish Fly, and the Robson CU-fly. (If anyone in the West has a used one, let me know)
4) Two things. Mostly cost. But also, the local river is only up for a few weeks, and at lower water, it would be hard to have any fun (surf, etc.) at the lower water level in an open boat. In my converted Riot boat, I can play all season long.
One caveat; I'm a newbe, so don't put much weight to my comments.
Darren
1) Don't know. I would like to get a Robson CU-fly though. I think that would be a fun boat. What holds me back? - $$$$$
2) don't know. I've only C-1'd so far.
3) I'd like to see more boats like the Pryahna(?) Spanish Fly, and the Robson CU-fly. (If anyone in the West has a used one, let me know)
4) Two things. Mostly cost. But also, the local river is only up for a few weeks, and at lower water, it would be hard to have any fun (surf, etc.) at the lower water level in an open boat. In my converted Riot boat, I can play all season long.
One caveat; I'm a newbe, so don't put much weight to my comments.
Darren
OC fun
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
I am an old timer who learned to roll from an article Whitesell wrote in a magazine (Paddler or something similar) around 1989. The word around Connecticut was "OCs can roll- Jim Michaud does it." So I just figured I should find out how.
I eventually met him and the first time I ever paddled with Jim Michaud was on Connecticut's Natchaug River (at about 120'/mile it was, at the time, a steep creek). When we went to scout we saw an OC swimmer getting trashed, and Jim commented that "you know, I have never seen another OC on this river that did not swim." I followed his directions for an upright run. Summary: swimming hurts, rolls make the boat heavy but much more comfortable.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
Decrease the weight. Wait a minute- they already did that. That's why I paddle a Kaz (Millbrook) boat now.
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
I now paddle both and I use 2 different rolls. It gets confusing having to think about a roll based on the type of boat you are in, rather than just going by reflex.
So Craig- what is your spin on your questions?
Jim
I am an old timer who learned to roll from an article Whitesell wrote in a magazine (Paddler or something similar) around 1989. The word around Connecticut was "OCs can roll- Jim Michaud does it." So I just figured I should find out how.
I eventually met him and the first time I ever paddled with Jim Michaud was on Connecticut's Natchaug River (at about 120'/mile it was, at the time, a steep creek). When we went to scout we saw an OC swimmer getting trashed, and Jim commented that "you know, I have never seen another OC on this river that did not swim." I followed his directions for an upright run. Summary: swimming hurts, rolls make the boat heavy but much more comfortable.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
Decrease the weight. Wait a minute- they already did that. That's why I paddle a Kaz (Millbrook) boat now.
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
I now paddle both and I use 2 different rolls. It gets confusing having to think about a roll based on the type of boat you are in, rather than just going by reflex.
So Craig- what is your spin on your questions?
Jim
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
Open canoes are generally drier, more comfortable and more stable than other canoes. The newer smaller boats aren't, it goes against the grain a bit (I paddle a superfly & prelude).
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
Self rescue is easy in an open boat with good air bags, I've only failed once resulting in a 2 mile run down the river bank. I don't intend to do it again. As the roll is difficult to master people tend to start off swimming. Once you've got into the habit of swimming it's difficult to get out of. My roll on whitewater is up to about 90% now but it's taken a few years.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
Better saddles in plastic boats
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
n/a
Open canoes are generally drier, more comfortable and more stable than other canoes. The newer smaller boats aren't, it goes against the grain a bit (I paddle a superfly & prelude).
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
Self rescue is easy in an open boat with good air bags, I've only failed once resulting in a 2 mile run down the river bank. I don't intend to do it again. As the roll is difficult to master people tend to start off swimming. Once you've got into the habit of swimming it's difficult to get out of. My roll on whitewater is up to about 90% now but it's taken a few years.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
Better saddles in plastic boats
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
n/a
Well...
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
Even though I paddle C1 mostly I love getting into any OC1 – if the owner lets me. But then I like getting into and testing any boat including, lord forbid…a kayak – if I can fit.
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
In my mind the OC1 roll takes “longer” and is harder than any other boat to roll. Rolling is best but swimming is better than being dragged upside down through a rocky rapid – that’s not what the sport is about!
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
Unfortunately I don’t paddle an OC enough now to really know. How about more demos being made available so I could make some comments?
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
$$$, time, storage space. I can only afford so many boats and only have a limited amount of time to paddle what I have. Also I can store 3 C1s in the space I use to store my OC1. Sad but true.
Even though I paddle C1 mostly I love getting into any OC1 – if the owner lets me. But then I like getting into and testing any boat including, lord forbid…a kayak – if I can fit.
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
In my mind the OC1 roll takes “longer” and is harder than any other boat to roll. Rolling is best but swimming is better than being dragged upside down through a rocky rapid – that’s not what the sport is about!
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
Unfortunately I don’t paddle an OC enough now to really know. How about more demos being made available so I could make some comments?
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
$$$, time, storage space. I can only afford so many boats and only have a limited amount of time to paddle what I have. Also I can store 3 C1s in the space I use to store my OC1. Sad but true.
Paul C.
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
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(O)C
Re: loaded questions
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
In part it's a cultural thing, coming from the 16-foot tripping canoe origins of OCing. When the Genesis came out ('92 or somewhere, solos under 14 ft were 'radical'). Many OCers seem to have more of a slalom/technical 'engineer' mentality where doing a technical perfect run is the goal as opposed to the more 'yahoo' mentality, where having fun is the priority. Many OCers don't like to swim, or capsize, and therefore underestimate their skills and don't want to risk trying playboats. However, what is 'normal' is slowly evolving.
A problem with some of the shorter boats that they take on lots of water and are slower. For really BIG water, I'd prefer an OC for speed. Perhaps many OCers don't get beyond this or correct the water problem by adding more foam so don't get the pleasure of feeling the water and surfing in a smaller boat...
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
OCers learn how to swim and self-rescue instead of rolling in the beginning. The OC roll is more difficult to master, slower, and harder to nail in a river, especially with strap outfitting. This makes trying to roll in a rocky rapid 2-3 times more dangerous in terms of hitting rocks and also being crushed between one's heavier, larger open canoe full of water and a rock.
Also, OC rolling is relatively new (i.e. no canoe equivalent of the 'Eskimo roll'). ABS, and float bags are also new- didn't this start with tire tubes, and pieces of foam in the 70s?
many kayakers don't seem to know much about flotation, throw ropes, towing boats, or how to swim safely in a rapid...
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
-more resistant materials
-more styles and different types of playboats and new river running designs
-better, more flexible outfitting
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
reasons to prefer C-1 over OC:
-no water to empty
-you 'wear the boat' more
-play potential
-more challenge on easier runs
-lots of cheap kayaks to convert
-rolling is not such a big deal as in OC
-boat easier to store, transport, portage
-more designs to choose from
-way to have the advantages of both kayaking and canoeing
-feeling of superiority vs. kayakers (!)
-image: younger, cooler, more extreme (someone has to say it!)...
Conclusion IMO: Doing both is the best and will improve technique in both C-1ing and OCing....
In part it's a cultural thing, coming from the 16-foot tripping canoe origins of OCing. When the Genesis came out ('92 or somewhere, solos under 14 ft were 'radical'). Many OCers seem to have more of a slalom/technical 'engineer' mentality where doing a technical perfect run is the goal as opposed to the more 'yahoo' mentality, where having fun is the priority. Many OCers don't like to swim, or capsize, and therefore underestimate their skills and don't want to risk trying playboats. However, what is 'normal' is slowly evolving.
A problem with some of the shorter boats that they take on lots of water and are slower. For really BIG water, I'd prefer an OC for speed. Perhaps many OCers don't get beyond this or correct the water problem by adding more foam so don't get the pleasure of feeling the water and surfing in a smaller boat...
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
OCers learn how to swim and self-rescue instead of rolling in the beginning. The OC roll is more difficult to master, slower, and harder to nail in a river, especially with strap outfitting. This makes trying to roll in a rocky rapid 2-3 times more dangerous in terms of hitting rocks and also being crushed between one's heavier, larger open canoe full of water and a rock.
Also, OC rolling is relatively new (i.e. no canoe equivalent of the 'Eskimo roll'). ABS, and float bags are also new- didn't this start with tire tubes, and pieces of foam in the 70s?
many kayakers don't seem to know much about flotation, throw ropes, towing boats, or how to swim safely in a rapid...
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
-more resistant materials
-more styles and different types of playboats and new river running designs
-better, more flexible outfitting
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
reasons to prefer C-1 over OC:
-no water to empty
-you 'wear the boat' more
-play potential
-more challenge on easier runs
-lots of cheap kayaks to convert
-rolling is not such a big deal as in OC
-boat easier to store, transport, portage
-more designs to choose from
-way to have the advantages of both kayaking and canoeing
-feeling of superiority vs. kayakers (!)
-image: younger, cooler, more extreme (someone has to say it!)...
Conclusion IMO: Doing both is the best and will improve technique in both C-1ing and OCing....
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Paddle Power
- C Maven
- Posts: 1041
- Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:18 am
- Location: Manitoba, Canada
- Contact:
response to Craig's questions
Interesting questions. Craig, we too are interested in your answers.
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
OC’ers are less trendy than kayakers, less flashy, and have less cash. It is a bit of a catch 22 situation, less options, less demand: less demand, less options.
Canoeists are more comfortable with what they have (i.e. larger boats). Less C1 production models means more work is required to outfit or convert kayaks and even C1 models must usually be modified more than production kayaks.
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
Self-rescue comes rather naturally, the first thing you learn, out of necessity, it can be simple to do and fast. Kayakers first learn to roll. Perhaps we need to teach the canoe roll first, but then the canoe roll is more difficult to learn so it might not be the best skill to try first. Remember that there are millions of canoes out there and people believe that they know how to canoe and do not start with lessons. Recall that people relate canoe to be associated with staying upright whereas, the public would sign up for a kayak lesson (and learn to roll) since they relate kayak to the possibility of ending upside down and thus there is a need to learn rolling.
In a dangerous situation a roll is not as easy or as reliable as a swim. If canoeists are more cautious paddlers then swimming is the way to go. Plus, remember that kayakers play more so they master their roll more quickly.
Also, canoeists are old school. They believe that canoes are meant to be kept upright. They wish to stay dry. They wish to keep the water out. This canoeing philosophy restricts canoeists’ learning curve. Kayakers on the other hand are more willing to play hard and rolls lots.
Lastly, mass OC rolling is a relatively new or recent phenomenon.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
I think there are some new-ish designs out there but there are not many of the boats around to try out. More demos and rentals might help the canoeing community.
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
Nothing holds me back since I own and paddle two OC1. But an OC is best at average water levels compared to C1 that is extremely great with huge water, still wonderful with average flow, and continues to offer fun when the water drops.
For Jim, why two different rolls (1 for OC and 1 for C1)? Why not use the same roll for both?
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
OC’ers are less trendy than kayakers, less flashy, and have less cash. It is a bit of a catch 22 situation, less options, less demand: less demand, less options.
Canoeists are more comfortable with what they have (i.e. larger boats). Less C1 production models means more work is required to outfit or convert kayaks and even C1 models must usually be modified more than production kayaks.
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
Self-rescue comes rather naturally, the first thing you learn, out of necessity, it can be simple to do and fast. Kayakers first learn to roll. Perhaps we need to teach the canoe roll first, but then the canoe roll is more difficult to learn so it might not be the best skill to try first. Remember that there are millions of canoes out there and people believe that they know how to canoe and do not start with lessons. Recall that people relate canoe to be associated with staying upright whereas, the public would sign up for a kayak lesson (and learn to roll) since they relate kayak to the possibility of ending upside down and thus there is a need to learn rolling.
In a dangerous situation a roll is not as easy or as reliable as a swim. If canoeists are more cautious paddlers then swimming is the way to go. Plus, remember that kayakers play more so they master their roll more quickly.
Also, canoeists are old school. They believe that canoes are meant to be kept upright. They wish to stay dry. They wish to keep the water out. This canoeing philosophy restricts canoeists’ learning curve. Kayakers on the other hand are more willing to play hard and rolls lots.
Lastly, mass OC rolling is a relatively new or recent phenomenon.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
I think there are some new-ish designs out there but there are not many of the boats around to try out. More demos and rentals might help the canoeing community.
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
Nothing holds me back since I own and paddle two OC1. But an OC is best at average water levels compared to C1 that is extremely great with huge water, still wonderful with average flow, and continues to offer fun when the water drops.
For Jim, why two different rolls (1 for OC and 1 for C1)? Why not use the same roll for both?
Brian
http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.JohnstonPursuits.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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NZMatt
- Supporting Paddler
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:55 pm
- Location: Konolfingen, Switzerland
Some thoughts and meanderings
I figure I should start my answers to this with some background. I started kayaking 5 or 6 years ago and 3-4 years ago decided I wanted to learn how to paddle OC. I've always liked to try things that are different and I had never been exposed to open canoes before (growing up in New Zealand where canoe means kayak). This season I haven't kayaked for pleasure at all and I converted my first C1 over the winter.
Even as a kayaker I've always been very comfortable in the water - I was paddling for 6 months and running class III before I even started learning to roll, I learnt to swim when I was about 5 and spent a lot of time body surfing and swimming in the surf when I was in NZ. As such, I think I'm more comfortable with swimming whitewater than many people are.
I started teaching kayaking about a year after I started paddling, started repping for a company at the same time and started teaching canoeing about a year after I started canoeing. I've taken virtually no instructional courses myself (one advanced river rescue, ACA kayak certification and one playboating clinic), having learnt from friends and by getting out there and doing it.
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
I can't really address this one - my first canoe was a Detonator and my next will be either the Zoom, Air or the Prelude. I have thought about getting a rodeo OC, but prefer the challenge of keeping a more traditionally styled boat dry. I'm also trying to learn to playboat better in this type of boat. I will note that the hardest thing to learn to do in the shorter boats is to go straight and many people probably aren't willing to make the adjustment and go back to feeling like a beginner again (Corran Addison has said some interesting things about kayakers along this line).
When I was choosing my first canoe, I was moving from paddling 7.5foot long kayak playboats - I couldn't make the transition to a long canoe. I wanted something I could still turn and manuveur with quickly. The additionaly setup time required for manuvering in a longer boat was something I couldn't adapt to. Hence, I got a Detonator - the first boat I found that I could readily manuveur. of course going straight was another matter
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
I think the better self-rescue skills are because we have to have them. Even good kayaking friends told me when I was learning (and getting frustrated at not having my roll and swimming) that swimming was just part of paddling open canoes. I'm now trying to fight that mentality to make myself bombproof my OC roll.
I've always considered self-rescue the prime responsibility of a paddler. I see so many kayakers floating down a rapid doing nothing to help themselves. One time I landed a rope about 3 feet upstream of one of these people and he just looked at me like I was an idiot for missing and kept on floating - didn't even try to grab the rope. A lot of people forget they have to rescue themselves - it's not up to others to do it for them.
As to rolling, that's a very interesting question. I'm teaching a beginner WWCanoe clinic starting saturday. Two flat/moving water sessions followed by a river trip. I don't have time to teach rolling in that time, but I had a friend (who is a 'yaker) who's taking it tell me straight out she wants to learn to roll, so i'll be spending the time to teach here outside teh main sessionss. It made me realise that we consider rolling a kayak to be a basic beginner skill (we normally teach that in our kayak classes before even putting people on movign water - OK normally only a couple of people in the classs will get a combat roll, but we teach it right a the beginning) whereas for canoes it's considered to be an intermediate to advanced level skill.
Yes, it's harder to roll an open boat, but if we teach it from the beginning, more and more people will start to get it and the sport and peoples attitudes will evolve. This is making me reconsider the way I teach.
Another difference is that as we are teaching more and more kayakers in playboats, we just take it for granted that they will need to be able to brace and roll on the river. Even in the old long kayaks - they flipped easily as they were basically log shaped. It is rare for beginners not to flip on their first river trips, especially if they're trying to surf and play. With modern playboats with their water-line edges, this is even more eaerbated as, even though they have more flatwater stability, those edges catch very easily on the river. Talk to the fishies time!
In canoes on the other hand, it is perfectly normal for people not to swim on their first river trips. The boats are bigger and more stable. They don't have hard edges on the waterline just aching to be grabbed by the current. Of course if you get far enough over to catch the gunwale under water, watch out This may not be so true if we were teaching more beginners in rodeo OCs
So...boat design, attitudes and how we consider the roll are (I think) some of the main differences.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
Lightweight.
Good hard edges
A material which the outfitting glue doesn't destroy (this to me just seems bizarre! there has to be a better glue which doesn't eat the royalex)
A self-bailing design
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
Nothing I paddle both, depending on my mood and what I'm running. I prefer a decked boat for park and play simply so I'm not always having to empty the boat. It's also a lot harder to ender and cartwheel an open boat on small features. So maybe we need bigger rivers
Wow! That was a bit more long winded than I intended
Matt
Even as a kayaker I've always been very comfortable in the water - I was paddling for 6 months and running class III before I even started learning to roll, I learnt to swim when I was about 5 and spent a lot of time body surfing and swimming in the surf when I was in NZ. As such, I think I'm more comfortable with swimming whitewater than many people are.
I started teaching kayaking about a year after I started paddling, started repping for a company at the same time and started teaching canoeing about a year after I started canoeing. I've taken virtually no instructional courses myself (one advanced river rescue, ACA kayak certification and one playboating clinic), having learnt from friends and by getting out there and doing it.
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
I can't really address this one - my first canoe was a Detonator and my next will be either the Zoom, Air or the Prelude. I have thought about getting a rodeo OC, but prefer the challenge of keeping a more traditionally styled boat dry. I'm also trying to learn to playboat better in this type of boat. I will note that the hardest thing to learn to do in the shorter boats is to go straight and many people probably aren't willing to make the adjustment and go back to feeling like a beginner again (Corran Addison has said some interesting things about kayakers along this line).
When I was choosing my first canoe, I was moving from paddling 7.5foot long kayak playboats - I couldn't make the transition to a long canoe. I wanted something I could still turn and manuveur with quickly. The additionaly setup time required for manuvering in a longer boat was something I couldn't adapt to. Hence, I got a Detonator - the first boat I found that I could readily manuveur. of course going straight was another matter
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
I think the better self-rescue skills are because we have to have them. Even good kayaking friends told me when I was learning (and getting frustrated at not having my roll and swimming) that swimming was just part of paddling open canoes. I'm now trying to fight that mentality to make myself bombproof my OC roll.
I've always considered self-rescue the prime responsibility of a paddler. I see so many kayakers floating down a rapid doing nothing to help themselves. One time I landed a rope about 3 feet upstream of one of these people and he just looked at me like I was an idiot for missing and kept on floating - didn't even try to grab the rope. A lot of people forget they have to rescue themselves - it's not up to others to do it for them.
As to rolling, that's a very interesting question. I'm teaching a beginner WWCanoe clinic starting saturday. Two flat/moving water sessions followed by a river trip. I don't have time to teach rolling in that time, but I had a friend (who is a 'yaker) who's taking it tell me straight out she wants to learn to roll, so i'll be spending the time to teach here outside teh main sessionss. It made me realise that we consider rolling a kayak to be a basic beginner skill (we normally teach that in our kayak classes before even putting people on movign water - OK normally only a couple of people in the classs will get a combat roll, but we teach it right a the beginning) whereas for canoes it's considered to be an intermediate to advanced level skill.
Yes, it's harder to roll an open boat, but if we teach it from the beginning, more and more people will start to get it and the sport and peoples attitudes will evolve. This is making me reconsider the way I teach.
Another difference is that as we are teaching more and more kayakers in playboats, we just take it for granted that they will need to be able to brace and roll on the river. Even in the old long kayaks - they flipped easily as they were basically log shaped. It is rare for beginners not to flip on their first river trips, especially if they're trying to surf and play. With modern playboats with their water-line edges, this is even more eaerbated as, even though they have more flatwater stability, those edges catch very easily on the river. Talk to the fishies time!
In canoes on the other hand, it is perfectly normal for people not to swim on their first river trips. The boats are bigger and more stable. They don't have hard edges on the waterline just aching to be grabbed by the current. Of course if you get far enough over to catch the gunwale under water, watch out
This may not be so true if we were teaching more beginners in rodeo OCsSo...boat design, attitudes and how we consider the roll are (I think) some of the main differences.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
Lightweight.
Good hard edges
A material which the outfitting glue doesn't destroy (this to me just seems bizarre! there has to be a better glue which doesn't eat the royalex)
A self-bailing design
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
Nothing
I paddle both, depending on my mood and what I'm running. I prefer a decked boat for park and play simply so I'm not always having to empty the boat. It's also a lot harder to ender and cartwheel an open boat on small features. So maybe we need bigger rivers Wow! That was a bit more long winded than I intended
Matt
NZMatt
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
Hmmm....new country, new rivers...-
Still not enough c-boaters....
2 rolls
Paddle power asked why I use different rolls in OC and C1. I learned to roll in a Whitesell Pyranha, which is a dream to roll. I even had a hand roll, which is really just a parlor trick.
Story about that- I used to side surf it in a hole, sometimes with the paddle tucked under the airbags. 1 time while doing that I was rolled and hand-rolled up before pulling up the paddle and paddling off. The kayakers on shore almost choked on their beers.
After a few years of running Class 4 rivers (and some that were 5 then and 4 now) I had a reliable roll and no swims. Well, no swims where I missed my roll. There was the time at Lost Paddle that I was knocked out of the boat before attempting a roll, so I cannot blame that on my roll, just on my location.
Then I got into a C1. A Slasher. I swam everything. Including flatwater.
I finally figured out that the C1 roll had to be faster and with a distinct hip snap. Since I am not too coordinated my solution was that my OC rolls were done on the right and at a slightly slower pace, and my C1 rolls were on the left and with a defined sweep and snap.
Works for me...
Jim
Story about that- I used to side surf it in a hole, sometimes with the paddle tucked under the airbags. 1 time while doing that I was rolled and hand-rolled up before pulling up the paddle and paddling off. The kayakers on shore almost choked on their beers.
After a few years of running Class 4 rivers (and some that were 5 then and 4 now) I had a reliable roll and no swims. Well, no swims where I missed my roll. There was the time at Lost Paddle that I was knocked out of the boat before attempting a roll, so I cannot blame that on my roll, just on my location.
Then I got into a C1. A Slasher. I swam everything. Including flatwater.
I finally figured out that the C1 roll had to be faster and with a distinct hip snap. Since I am not too coordinated my solution was that my OC rolls were done on the right and at a slightly slower pace, and my C1 rolls were on the left and with a defined sweep and snap.
Works for me...
Jim
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Martyn
OK Craig,
so do your reasons include a new boat design in the works ?
Here's my answers:
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
OC paddlers seem to be more conservative than decked boat paddlers. Lots of people up here got into Phantoms. Many of the people moving to Phantoms came from Rivals or Genesises (Genesii?). I would say people are getting into shorter, more challenging, fun boats. I know this isn't really answering your question, as by definition, the most fun boats are rotomolded. I'm not sure why OC1 paddlers have not embraced rotomolded technology. The boats are a bit heavier but a lot more durable. I think that the first generation rotomolded boats were perceived to be too radical (although its hard to say that now about the Skeeter and Quake), I think the ___Fly line are a little too specialized for hole playing, and that most OC paddlers don't like holes. People up in Ontario aren't used to the bulkhead style of outfitting. I think that holds a lot of people back from getting into boats like the Prelude.
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
I think this has to do with the way the sport is taught. Kayakers are taught to roll from the get go, perhaps because it is a lot harder to get out of a K1 than an OC (and as far as self rescue goes, its hard to get back int a kayak). Whereas, with OC, self-rescue and canoe-over-canoe are taught at the introductory level. There is a perception amongst OC paddlers that rolling is an advanced skill. If OC1 were taught the same way K1 is, I supect that OC paddlers would all be rolling.
I'm not sure if this is true but I'll throw it out there anyway. I find a C1 easier to roll than an OC1. I've tried rolling a K1 but the other $#@& blade kept getting in the way. However, I suspect that rolling a K1 is easier than rolling an OC1. Muscling your way though an OC roll is possible, while an effortless OC roll is a bit harder. I suspect that rolling an OC is inherently harder than rolling a K1, and that miught be why it is not taught at the introductory level, and why more OC paddlers don't roll.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
I think a system that permitted Mike Yee -style outfitting to be used in rotomolded boats would lead to a real market breakthrough. I prefer bulkhead systems in my boats but that means the boats are custom outfitted to me. An adjustable system (like the one Mike sells) would allow rotomolded boats to be used by schools such as MKC of NOC and rental fleets.
As for the design changes I would like to see - I'd love to seea boat that mates the underwater lines of my Skeeter with the above water volume of my Prelude.
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
N/A - I do everything I might want to do in a C1 in an OC1.
Martyn
curious for my own reasons.... Craig
so do your reasons include a new boat design in the works ?
Here's my answers:
1. Why are OC'ers afraid to try or what holds them back from newer, shorter, more challenging, but fun boats?
OC paddlers seem to be more conservative than decked boat paddlers. Lots of people up here got into Phantoms. Many of the people moving to Phantoms came from Rivals or Genesises (Genesii?). I would say people are getting into shorter, more challenging, fun boats. I know this isn't really answering your question, as by definition, the most fun boats are rotomolded. I'm not sure why OC1 paddlers have not embraced rotomolded technology. The boats are a bit heavier but a lot more durable. I think that the first generation rotomolded boats were perceived to be too radical (although its hard to say that now about the Skeeter and Quake), I think the ___Fly line are a little too specialized for hole playing, and that most OC paddlers don't like holes. People up in Ontario aren't used to the bulkhead style of outfitting. I think that holds a lot of people back from getting into boats like the Prelude.
2. Why do OC'ers have a better self-rescue than "any" kayaker... but little to no rolling skills on average?
I think this has to do with the way the sport is taught. Kayakers are taught to roll from the get go, perhaps because it is a lot harder to get out of a K1 than an OC (and as far as self rescue goes, its hard to get back int a kayak). Whereas, with OC, self-rescue and canoe-over-canoe are taught at the introductory level. There is a perception amongst OC paddlers that rolling is an advanced skill. If OC1 were taught the same way K1 is, I supect that OC paddlers would all be rolling.
I'm not sure if this is true but I'll throw it out there anyway. I find a C1 easier to roll than an OC1. I've tried rolling a K1 but the other $#@& blade kept getting in the way. However, I suspect that rolling a K1 is easier than rolling an OC1. Muscling your way though an OC roll is possible, while an effortless OC roll is a bit harder. I suspect that rolling an OC is inherently harder than rolling a K1, and that miught be why it is not taught at the introductory level, and why more OC paddlers don't roll.
3. If you where an OC'er what design changes would you like to see in a new boat?
I think a system that permitted Mike Yee -style outfitting to be used in rotomolded boats would lead to a real market breakthrough. I prefer bulkhead systems in my boats but that means the boats are custom outfitted to me. An adjustable system (like the one Mike sells) would allow rotomolded boats to be used by schools such as MKC of NOC and rental fleets.
As for the design changes I would like to see - I'd love to seea boat that mates the underwater lines of my Skeeter with the above water volume of my Prelude.
4. As a c-boater what holds you back from paddling a "open" canoe?
N/A - I do everything I might want to do in a C1 in an OC1.
Martyn
curious for my own reasons.... Craig
-
dixie_boater
- C Guru
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 6:46 pm
- Location: Lilburn, GA USA
Response to Craig's questions
1. I believe the fact that larger OC's are more stable and people become more comfortable in a boat longer than 12 ft. is the main reason they never change to a shorter, more manueverable canoe. Some boaters don't want to play waves or holes and are just fine in longer canoes.
I have open boated for many years and started in a 16 ft. Mohawk Whitewater tandem boat that I outfitted with a homemade ethafoam saddle and truck innertubes. I moved to a 14'-3" Mohawk Scamp and then to a Whitesell Piranha. This was in the mid 80's and the Piranha was then considered to be the hot boat for OC-1. I saw others go through the same cycle with boat selection. I also saw a lot of people stay in their Blue Hole OCAs and Mad River Explorers for solo paddling. The current boating trends are much the same except the old school boaters are in 13 ft. Mohawks or Mad River Outrages and the new school are in rotomolded boats or sub-10 ft. Royalex canoes.
2. Open boaters are better at self rescue because they are taught that from the beginning. Few attempt to roll because they think it's too hard. I find rolling is a lot less hard on my old bones and will try to roll over swimming most of the time. Kayakers should learn to self rescue better. They tend to rely too much on someone to chase down their gear when they swim. Granted, in some situations they sholdn't pay attention to their gear (like in the Five Falls of the Chattooga), but in less demanding places they quickly shed their gear and look for others to round it up. The first rule in whitewater is to be as self-sufficient as possible. If you can help yourself, do it. Others may be endangered trying to help you on the water. Developing good self-rescue skills should be taught before any boater (decked or open) learns to roll.
3. A change in hull materials is the most important area to improve open canoe performance for whitewater. ABS Royalex doesn't hold up on class III-V for more than a year or two and rotomolded hulls are too heavy. I am eager to see what Esquif is going to build new boats from in the future. I've heard rumors that they are looking at other materials than Royalex. Glass hulls are OK for those that can care for them. A less maintenance-intensive boat will sell better too.
4. I don't paddle C-1 or C-2. Nothing holds me back from paddling an open boat. It is all I paddle.
Michael
an old school open boater who does try the new boats out too!
I have open boated for many years and started in a 16 ft. Mohawk Whitewater tandem boat that I outfitted with a homemade ethafoam saddle and truck innertubes. I moved to a 14'-3" Mohawk Scamp and then to a Whitesell Piranha. This was in the mid 80's and the Piranha was then considered to be the hot boat for OC-1. I saw others go through the same cycle with boat selection. I also saw a lot of people stay in their Blue Hole OCAs and Mad River Explorers for solo paddling. The current boating trends are much the same except the old school boaters are in 13 ft. Mohawks or Mad River Outrages and the new school are in rotomolded boats or sub-10 ft. Royalex canoes.
2. Open boaters are better at self rescue because they are taught that from the beginning. Few attempt to roll because they think it's too hard. I find rolling is a lot less hard on my old bones and will try to roll over swimming most of the time. Kayakers should learn to self rescue better. They tend to rely too much on someone to chase down their gear when they swim. Granted, in some situations they sholdn't pay attention to their gear (like in the Five Falls of the Chattooga), but in less demanding places they quickly shed their gear and look for others to round it up. The first rule in whitewater is to be as self-sufficient as possible. If you can help yourself, do it. Others may be endangered trying to help you on the water. Developing good self-rescue skills should be taught before any boater (decked or open) learns to roll.
3. A change in hull materials is the most important area to improve open canoe performance for whitewater. ABS Royalex doesn't hold up on class III-V for more than a year or two and rotomolded hulls are too heavy. I am eager to see what Esquif is going to build new boats from in the future. I've heard rumors that they are looking at other materials than Royalex. Glass hulls are OK for those that can care for them. A less maintenance-intensive boat will sell better too.
4. I don't paddle C-1 or C-2. Nothing holds me back from paddling an open boat. It is all I paddle.
Michael
an old school open boater who does try the new boats out too!