Spotted in Tennessee
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Spotted in Tennessee
I forgot I had this picture, I spotted 3 of these on the hiwassee on memorial day weekend. Husband and wife had one, plus another for their son. cool boats.
-
the great gonzo
- Paddling Benefactor
- Posts: 1718
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:03 am
- Location: Montréal, Québec
Yes, the boat is composite. It's called the 'Bulldog' and made by Composite Creations (Andy Phillips) in London/Ontario: http://www.compositecreations.ca/
martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!
martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing - Henry David Thoreau
-
patterbear
- C Boater
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:58 pm
- Location: Nashville, TN
Was out there too - saw the son get stuck in a hole sideways. Looked like the boat was very stable and dry. As far as strength and durability goes - if memory serves, Composite Creations does a fair bit of business building pontoons for float planes. If it's good enough for the FAA...whoops-scratch that 
.
.So, you go rafting with that thing? Uh...yeah.
The science
Well, philcanoe, I'd say the science has improved with this design.
A three dimensional object has stronger structural properties than a two dimensional one because stress is distributed more evenly, all other factors being equal.
This boat is essentially taking a U-shape and converting it to an O-shape. I think this will make it much stronger.
That being said, the design has some limitations. Like carrying gear. And like the basics of composite maintenance. You'll still have to patch on occasion. But, like always, you can get a better design in composites because set up and mold making are so much cheaper.
I like this boat from seeing it. But such boats will always have a limited market in all probability.
IMHO
Bill
A three dimensional object has stronger structural properties than a two dimensional one because stress is distributed more evenly, all other factors being equal.
This boat is essentially taking a U-shape and converting it to an O-shape. I think this will make it much stronger.
That being said, the design has some limitations. Like carrying gear. And like the basics of composite maintenance. You'll still have to patch on occasion. But, like always, you can get a better design in composites because set up and mold making are so much cheaper.
I like this boat from seeing it. But such boats will always have a limited market in all probability.
IMHO
Bill
Re: The science
well bill (since your baiting me)...
it's still glass and/or carbon and/or some aramid fiber - that is most likely held in shape with epoxy-or-polyester-or-vinylester... maybe it's heat cured, maybe it's not... maybe it's post cured, maybe it's not... maybe it's injected molded, maybe wet molded, maybe hand laid up....
it's still a composite hull, and as most of the old timers around here know...
**composites will break
**composites will abrade and give you a rash
**composites will not slide over rocks very well
**so on low water boofs... you will not get that boof everyone else is getting... you might even be left dangling, just when you need your boof most
**with composites unless you are the handi-man type - your repairs will either be costly or will look like crap, and still may not work very well... if your the type that pays to get a boat outfitted... take heed
as for this boat, like you said...
**when it does crack, will you be able to get a patch on the inside
** when a end chamber cracks, is there a way to empty the water
**this design appears to have no room for anything, like maybe a paddle
have been through many a glass boat...and they all break... and you will have to allocate repair time... no way around
nothing on the market last like HDPE, is as carefree, or slides over rocks as well... how many composite kayaks do you see, there is a reason
also not all strength is a good thing, a stress riser is very very bad thing on the hull of a whitewater boat, and that is what a stiff bullhead will create... have seen them before, old aluminum canoes had them, only smaller ... have built them myself (although they were made so as not create a stress riser ..ie they flexed)
also not in awe of the float plane construction thing (Pardon my French-BFD)... Me and my boat building partner (an engineer also dealing with composites) learned and traded secrets from guys that build offshore speed boats, from folks that make parts for NASCAR, as well as surfboard shapers, and fellow whitewater boat builders
I wish the guy well...
but lets not forget what we are looking at, or forget that many many people have been down this road before... composites hulls have a place, these designers do tend push the envelope... weight and efficiency wise they have no equal... small batches of some specialized boats would never get built otherwise... but a beat-em up, charge down the river(runner), explore this way or that craft of fiberglass is not that good for the majority of whitewater open canoers
it's still glass and/or carbon and/or some aramid fiber - that is most likely held in shape with epoxy-or-polyester-or-vinylester... maybe it's heat cured, maybe it's not... maybe it's post cured, maybe it's not... maybe it's injected molded, maybe wet molded, maybe hand laid up....
it's still a composite hull, and as most of the old timers around here know...
**composites will break
**composites will abrade and give you a rash
**composites will not slide over rocks very well
**so on low water boofs... you will not get that boof everyone else is getting... you might even be left dangling, just when you need your boof most
**with composites unless you are the handi-man type - your repairs will either be costly or will look like crap, and still may not work very well... if your the type that pays to get a boat outfitted... take heed
as for this boat, like you said...
**when it does crack, will you be able to get a patch on the inside
** when a end chamber cracks, is there a way to empty the water
**this design appears to have no room for anything, like maybe a paddle
have been through many a glass boat...and they all break... and you will have to allocate repair time... no way around
nothing on the market last like HDPE, is as carefree, or slides over rocks as well... how many composite kayaks do you see, there is a reason
also not all strength is a good thing, a stress riser is very very bad thing on the hull of a whitewater boat, and that is what a stiff bullhead will create... have seen them before, old aluminum canoes had them, only smaller ... have built them myself (although they were made so as not create a stress riser ..ie they flexed)
also not in awe of the float plane construction thing (Pardon my French-BFD)... Me and my boat building partner (an engineer also dealing with composites) learned and traded secrets from guys that build offshore speed boats, from folks that make parts for NASCAR, as well as surfboard shapers, and fellow whitewater boat builders
I wish the guy well...
but lets not forget what we are looking at, or forget that many many people have been down this road before... composites hulls have a place, these designers do tend push the envelope... weight and efficiency wise they have no equal... small batches of some specialized boats would never get built otherwise... but a beat-em up, charge down the river(runner), explore this way or that craft of fiberglass is not that good for the majority of whitewater open canoers
Composites
Phil,
I do not engage in baiting and apologize for creating that impression. I was merely addressing you personally.
Most of your points are correct and well taken.
I was merely trying to point out that this is a newer concept than most composite designs I have seen. Whether it solves all of the problems with composites is highly debatable. In fact, I'd say it does not.
I personally feel the main use of composites is in the racing field or in the design field. Both need the ability to come up with new concepts quickly and cheaply. Composite mold design is cheap and quick.
Composite aside, this is an interesting boat, IMHO. Whether it is destined to be a success is another matter.
Again, apologies for "baiting". Not my style.
Bill
I do not engage in baiting and apologize for creating that impression. I was merely addressing you personally.
Most of your points are correct and well taken.
I was merely trying to point out that this is a newer concept than most composite designs I have seen. Whether it solves all of the problems with composites is highly debatable. In fact, I'd say it does not.
I personally feel the main use of composites is in the racing field or in the design field. Both need the ability to come up with new concepts quickly and cheaply. Composite mold design is cheap and quick.
Composite aside, this is an interesting boat, IMHO. Whether it is destined to be a success is another matter.
Again, apologies for "baiting". Not my style.
Bill
This boat is at least as strong as Twin-tex.
Might be harder to fix then Royalex but so is Twin-tex.Given the popularity of the Zephyr, there could certainly be a market for this boat.
Adding it to my fleet of OC's and for river running the big water rivers we have up here, this boat certainly makes sense.
The Splash, only OC for kids, came out of this mold.
I read on other posts you guys down south have a problem with OC popularity. May be getting kids into OC's at a younger age would solve this MAJOR problem you have.
Let's cheer new ideas instead of destroying them(so little of us ). How can we progress to newer concepts if we stop trying ?
I'll be pruchasing the Splash soon for my little guy and know this new generation of 8 year olds in OC's will be setting the tone a few years from now !
Hope my english was good enough this time
Might be harder to fix then Royalex but so is Twin-tex.Given the popularity of the Zephyr, there could certainly be a market for this boat.
Adding it to my fleet of OC's and for river running the big water rivers we have up here, this boat certainly makes sense.
The Splash, only OC for kids, came out of this mold.
I read on other posts you guys down south have a problem with OC popularity. May be getting kids into OC's at a younger age would solve this MAJOR problem you have.
Let's cheer new ideas instead of destroying them(so little of us
). How can we progress to newer concepts if we stop trying ? I'll be pruchasing the Splash soon for my little guy and know this new generation of 8 year olds in OC's will be setting the tone a few years from now !
Hope my english was good enough this time
your English is good, not that it's that much better down here
not saying that anyone would be foolish to purchase one, the performance of a solid light boat is a good feeling... however with the number of threads/post concerning patching ABS, the vast majority are not ready .. of course after the first patch or two -most will very likely become better/cleaner paddlers
not saying that anyone would be foolish to purchase one, the performance of a solid light boat is a good feeling... however with the number of threads/post concerning patching ABS, the vast majority are not ready .. of course after the first patch or two -most will very likely become better/cleaner paddlers
One difference with this boat vs other composite/glass boats are the bulkheads - they provide a huge amount of rigidity to the boat. Also it's not much lighter than a royalex boat because the layup is considerably thicker than a high-performance/light composite boat.
You can pretty much configure it how you want. bulkhead size/shape, etc. They come custom built.
As for durability, the boat manufacturer was telling me that he finally had a report of a broken composite boat - Mike Yee paddling one for about four years finally broke it... Mike generally went through a boat every one-two seasons prior to that.
This boat isnt going to be the next ocoee in terms of market share IMO, for many of the reasons Phil states, and it aint cheap. $2K plus - but I'd bet you'd be pretty happy with the whole package - excellent customer service, customizeable options (storage hatches in bulkheads) custom gel coats, etc.... When you compare it beside a new Ocoee with outfitting, it's getting close to 2K as well - and considering this composite boat would probably last much longer for the average user it's certainly something to look into.
Mike
You can pretty much configure it how you want. bulkhead size/shape, etc. They come custom built.
As for durability, the boat manufacturer was telling me that he finally had a report of a broken composite boat - Mike Yee paddling one for about four years finally broke it... Mike generally went through a boat every one-two seasons prior to that.
This boat isnt going to be the next ocoee in terms of market share IMO, for many of the reasons Phil states, and it aint cheap. $2K plus - but I'd bet you'd be pretty happy with the whole package - excellent customer service, customizeable options (storage hatches in bulkheads) custom gel coats, etc.... When you compare it beside a new Ocoee with outfitting, it's getting close to 2K as well - and considering this composite boat would probably last much longer for the average user it's certainly something to look into.
Mike
-- Cya
the Taureau can't do everything either so why would the bulldog/splash be expected to acomplish more?
It's got it's niesh. Haven't paddled the BD enough to give you a review other than she seems fast and more forgiving than I expected.
MSIMS is correct....the boats are not light. Our daughter's Splash is heavier than she can carry but it has provided dividents in that she can wack it on rocks comming into eddies and it doesn't dent.
It's gone a few arse over kettle rounds down rapids on it's own and the only repairs we've had to make are one beed of glue at the rim. It's got a hairline right now (on a tank weld) that doesn't really let much water in so we'll repair it eventually. The pressure release valves come out and act as drain plugs if you need to so even if you get a major crack and you would have to hit it collosally hard, you can still get down a river
I figure it's a solid aqasition. I don't expect a boat to last for ever (isn't that a Mike Yee ism) and if you're paddling it will wear somewhat but definately not as quickly as ABS......even the blessed plastics need to be replaced. And when she outgrows it (and she will before it is worn badly) we already have someone calling dibs on it second hand
As for bottom wear.....she's picked up a nasty preference for ELF lines and other than missing some paint in spots it's not any thinner
She's nine years old......not many kids paddle class 4 creeks exculsively....come to think of it, don't know many adult boaters that do either
I don't know many boaters with just one boat....it's an option with it's strengths and weaknesses and for a kid, it's definately a solid choice.
It's got it's niesh. Haven't paddled the BD enough to give you a review other than she seems fast and more forgiving than I expected.
MSIMS is correct....the boats are not light. Our daughter's Splash is heavier than she can carry but it has provided dividents in that she can wack it on rocks comming into eddies and it doesn't dent.
It's gone a few arse over kettle rounds down rapids on it's own and the only repairs we've had to make are one beed of glue at the rim. It's got a hairline right now (on a tank weld) that doesn't really let much water in so we'll repair it eventually. The pressure release valves come out and act as drain plugs if you need to so even if you get a major crack and you would have to hit it collosally hard, you can still get down a river
I figure it's a solid aqasition. I don't expect a boat to last for ever (isn't that a Mike Yee ism) and if you're paddling it will wear somewhat but definately not as quickly as ABS......even the blessed plastics need to be replaced. And when she outgrows it (and she will before it is worn badly) we already have someone calling dibs on it second hand
As for bottom wear.....she's picked up a nasty preference for ELF lines and other than missing some paint in spots it's not any thinner
She's nine years old......not many kids paddle class 4 creeks exculsively....come to think of it, don't know many adult boaters that do either
I don't know many boaters with just one boat....it's an option with it's strengths and weaknesses and for a kid, it's definately a solid choice.