I have an old fiberglass C-2 (maybe a Paramax) that is 15' long that I am considering restoring. It has been suggested to me to cut it down to the newer 4.1 meter (13.5') length. This seems appealing since some of the length, especially at the stern, does not appear to serve any useful purpose and is simply prone to breakage.
Can anyone offer any detailed advice or provide a link demonstrating how to go about this? I am not going to remove the deck from the hull, so I won't be able to work from the inside to the boat, except possibly to do an end-pour if necessary. I am especially interested in how to make a form over which to lay the new 'glass and how to get a structurally solid junction with the old hull and hopefully a reasonably fair junction as well, although the cosmetics are secondary.
Cutting down a C-2
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John Coraor
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Having built and raced a Paramax II back in the early 80s, I can say that, while you can cut down a Paramax to reduce its length, taking full advantage of the current ICF length and width minimums for slalom would be a whole different ballgame. You need to remember that not only is a Paramax a full 15', but it is also correspondingly wider than the current ICF width minimum and carries that volume further into the ends. Even 15' C-2s immediately after the Paramax had notably reduced volume in the ends (both vertically and horizontally). Some boats even effectively reduced the functional hull width by using "wings," like those first used in the Batmax, to narrow the hull below the waterline while still conforming to width minimums.
I was one of the 5-member design team that developed both the Torrent and Torrent XL C-2s immediately after the Paramax II. Both of these boats were noticeably faster both in sprints and in turning than the Paramax II for teams within their design weight range. However, neither of these boats would be very competitive today against a post 2005 slalom C-2.
I don't want to discourage you from taking on the project if you want to, just urge you to be realistic about the results. If you do decide to go ahead, you might want to take some dimensional measurements off of more current slalom C-2s to see how they differ form the Paramax. In addition to being shorter, current slalom C-2s hold much more of their volume in the bow and center and much less in the stern. This is primarily a result of reverse gates having been dropped from slalom and an increased emphasis on stern pivots.
Although I've built composite boats, I've never cut-down the seams (i.e. the height) of a used boat, so I'll let others advise you there.
Good luck!!!
John
I was one of the 5-member design team that developed both the Torrent and Torrent XL C-2s immediately after the Paramax II. Both of these boats were noticeably faster both in sprints and in turning than the Paramax II for teams within their design weight range. However, neither of these boats would be very competitive today against a post 2005 slalom C-2.
I don't want to discourage you from taking on the project if you want to, just urge you to be realistic about the results. If you do decide to go ahead, you might want to take some dimensional measurements off of more current slalom C-2s to see how they differ form the Paramax. In addition to being shorter, current slalom C-2s hold much more of their volume in the bow and center and much less in the stern. This is primarily a result of reverse gates having been dropped from slalom and an increased emphasis on stern pivots.
Although I've built composite boats, I've never cut-down the seams (i.e. the height) of a used boat, so I'll let others advise you there.
Good luck!!!
John
Thank you, John for the advice.
Actually, I would plan to use this old boat solely as a river runner (providing I can find someone stupid enough to paddle with me) on Class II-III whitewater so the additional volume resulting from the depth and width is welcome.
I would simply like to blunt the front end a little bit to make it less susceptible to rocks and eliminate the tail "spike" that appears to have no function other than to make up the once required length and appears quite prone to breakage. The boat would not have to wind up 4.1 meters in length, but that looks as if it would be about right.
I would also cut out the existing cockpits and build new ones to match the size of the Dagger Atom and Cascade so I could use the same size skirts.
Actually, I would plan to use this old boat solely as a river runner (providing I can find someone stupid enough to paddle with me) on Class II-III whitewater so the additional volume resulting from the depth and width is welcome.
I would simply like to blunt the front end a little bit to make it less susceptible to rocks and eliminate the tail "spike" that appears to have no function other than to make up the once required length and appears quite prone to breakage. The boat would not have to wind up 4.1 meters in length, but that looks as if it would be about right.
I would also cut out the existing cockpits and build new ones to match the size of the Dagger Atom and Cascade so I could use the same size skirts.
Peter - a couple thoughts....
I added a rubber end stopper on the front of an old C2 I had (Gemini) and it worked to deflect some rock damage. It also helps to aim for the light ... not the dark (rocks are dark). Ya go where you look.
As for the tail ... perhaps just cut it off and glass it out / end pour it if its a liability. If its a beater... whats the worse that can happen... its ugly and paddles like a pig... your not looking to win anything with it right?
Just my $.01. Bring it TBash and we can review some options.
I added a rubber end stopper on the front of an old C2 I had (Gemini) and it worked to deflect some rock damage. It also helps to aim for the light ... not the dark (rocks are dark). Ya go where you look.
As for the tail ... perhaps just cut it off and glass it out / end pour it if its a liability. If its a beater... whats the worse that can happen... its ugly and paddles like a pig... your not looking to win anything with it right?
Just my $.01. Bring it TBash and we can review some options.
Paul C.
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Kelly-Rand
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John Coraor
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Jim, you're certainly right. The Argumax (a/k/a Paramax II) was a substantial improvement on endhole C-2s and even on the Gemini series that launched the center cockpit C-2 designs. I'm not knocking it; it will certainly make a nice river cruiser.
My initial comments were based on a misunderstanding of Peter's original intention. I thought he was going to undertake a serious cutdown of the seams (i.e. volume) in addition to chopping the ends in order to get a shorter, more competitive slalom boat. That would be a stretch starting with a Paramax!
Peter, chop away at the ends all you want. I did something similar on my Torrent slalom C-2 after we switched to paddling the Torrent XL. The idea was to get rid of the most vulnerable portions of bow and stern so that we could use the Torrent as more of a fun playboat and river runner. We also chopped off the wings to make it easier for the sternman to avoid smashing his thumb on them (a definite drawback of that design).
I just extended the end-pour a little and then took a sabre saw and disc sander to it. I believe I then slapped a couple layers of cloth over the ends just to make sure that they were sealed well. However, if you take off much more than the first six inches that would probably be too much end pour to bother with.
When I chopped some 4 meter solo slalom boats more recently, I just used the sabre saw and then filled the open ends with some foam. I shaped the foam into the right contours to form new ends and then laid up several layers of cloth and resin over it. The result was lighter than if I had tried to extend the end pour. Also end pours don't adhere well on used boats. All that muddy river water leaves a film on the inside of the layup so you don't get good adhesion. I used a can of the expanding foam that you can get at Home Depot or hardware stores for insulating in crevices around new or replacement windows or doors. However, keep in mind that this foam isn't waterproof; it will soak up some water and/or resin, so you don't want to use much of it. A waterproof foam would be better if you can find some.
I hope that info is of some assistance.
John
My initial comments were based on a misunderstanding of Peter's original intention. I thought he was going to undertake a serious cutdown of the seams (i.e. volume) in addition to chopping the ends in order to get a shorter, more competitive slalom boat. That would be a stretch starting with a Paramax!
Peter, chop away at the ends all you want. I did something similar on my Torrent slalom C-2 after we switched to paddling the Torrent XL. The idea was to get rid of the most vulnerable portions of bow and stern so that we could use the Torrent as more of a fun playboat and river runner. We also chopped off the wings to make it easier for the sternman to avoid smashing his thumb on them (a definite drawback of that design).
I just extended the end-pour a little and then took a sabre saw and disc sander to it. I believe I then slapped a couple layers of cloth over the ends just to make sure that they were sealed well. However, if you take off much more than the first six inches that would probably be too much end pour to bother with.
When I chopped some 4 meter solo slalom boats more recently, I just used the sabre saw and then filled the open ends with some foam. I shaped the foam into the right contours to form new ends and then laid up several layers of cloth and resin over it. The result was lighter than if I had tried to extend the end pour. Also end pours don't adhere well on used boats. All that muddy river water leaves a film on the inside of the layup so you don't get good adhesion. I used a can of the expanding foam that you can get at Home Depot or hardware stores for insulating in crevices around new or replacement windows or doors. However, keep in mind that this foam isn't waterproof; it will soak up some water and/or resin, so you don't want to use much of it. A waterproof foam would be better if you can find some.
I hope that info is of some assistance.
John