C-Forum

Tenzing wrote:Einar - If that kevlar Viper 11 ever goes up for sale, I'm calling dibs here and now. Y'all are witnesses!

They make new ones-- http://www.clippercanoes.com/boat_specs ... d94151fc54

Craig Smerda wrote:
Also... there is no rotomolding mold for an Ocoee... only a fiberglass "vacum suck" RX one. That all being said... I wouldn't mind seeing them made in camo R-light with wood trim and a bulkhead saddle.

But, from what we've learned about canoe production over the last couple of months (Thanks Shane and Jeremy!), we know it wouldn't be THAT much of a stretch to create a low-volume composite mold for a poly or composite boat off of a brand-new RX Hull. Heck, I don't know much about Bell, but I'm surprised they never produced a composite Ocoee. I mean they made a few composite Outrages. (Of course, I dunno if there was a second type of mold for the Outrage made at some point...)

Shep

hey Ed, I'm supporting the Kaz bandwagon, especially as you plan on keeping the Nitro for the lumpier stuff. I know you've seen me in the Encore, fun boat; but when I can I love paddling my "freebie thanks to Paul Edwards" Millbrook Flashback. It's lighter than most kayaks, and is the first boat I ever did a cross stroke attainment in (Roostertail). Response is instantaneous, helping to avoid the rocks the royalex may not miss. I cracked it by my knees as I like to surf it a lot, which wasn't it's designed purpose , but repairs are easy. Not saying the Flashback specifically, but something real light makes cl.1-3 real special. First time I tried punching a wave in this it just bobbed over, definitely a fun feeling once I got to expect it. You're welcome to try it, we could do a boat swap for Crystal/satans, or I could bring it for a P@P session at Roostertail.

Shep wrote: But, from what we've learned about canoe production over the last couple of months (Thanks Shane and Jeremy!), we know it wouldn't be THAT much of a stretch to create a low-volume composite mold for a poly or composite boat off of a brand-new RX Hull.
Shep

but unless it was your design, that would be stealing, wouldn't it.

Larry Horne wrote:

Shep wrote: But, from what we've learned about canoe production over the last couple of months (Thanks Shane and Jeremy!), we know it wouldn't be THAT much of a stretch to create a low-volume composite mold for a poly or composite boat off of a brand-new RX Hull.
Shep

but unless it was your design, that would be stealing, wouldn't it.

The whole conversation was predicated on the idea that someone would buy the mold from Bell, so no... If someone buys the mold to produce royalex boats (and the implicit assumption has been that the rights go with the mold), then it wouldn't.

Craig Smerda wrote:

TheKrikkitWars wrote:If the canoeist's wish fairy is listening right now, I'd like to see Esquif make a rotomoulded Ocoee.

Do you realize how much that would weigh?



Also... there is no rotomolding mold for an Ocoee... only a fiberglass "vacum suck" RX one. That all being said... I wouldn't mind seeing them made in camo R-light with wood trim and a bulkhead saddle.

It wouldn't weigh *that* much, turns out after much ado about the weight of roto-moulded boats, when i picked up Kelvin's new wood trimmed l'edge it's no heavier than a K1 creekboat; and the roto-moulded preludes are actually lighter than the corelight/tripletough ones which I can carry a couple of miles uphill just fine.

Update:

So I very much appreciate the feedback you all have provided and I have given it some thought and done some research. My thinking is that given my relatively low skill level, I would likely end up breaking a composite boat. So while I haven’t completely ruled out composite, I don’t think I am ready for it….yet.

I’ve never seen a Viper 11 locally and don’t anticipate that there are many (if any) up this way. I got a quote from Mohawk for a new, ready-to-paddle Viper 11 shipped and it is pretty reasonable from what I can tell. Mid-year bonus is only days away, and I am seriously thinking about pulling the trigger……but it would be nice to see if I could demo one before laying it all out for a new one.

Have you put out feelers on NPMB? I bet there is a viper 11 somewhere nearby. I think you will end up being quite happy with a new boat from Mohawk. There' nothing like that new Royalex smell!

Shep

Shep. The composite Outraged that Bell made is very different than the royalex Outrage. I purchased the Outraged first and then the Outrage to use when the river might not be friendly to glass. I was very surprised at how different they are from one another. I was told that the glass version was optimized so the molds are completely different designs.

Unless you are creeking, go glass. It is a lot easier to miss rocks in a light boat, and your skill level may increase quicker:)

I'm just finishing reoutfitting the boat I started paddling in decades ago - a Millbrook AC DC. I'd forgotten what a joy it is to paddle (tandem).

I might try it solo, too, and be "longboatin' "

a few things

1 Larry you are right using a rx boat to make a mole to lay glass boats up is stealing.

2 A roto molded V11 would be so heavy it would suck

3 We may have a new dealer in Germany

If you are pulling a plug or mold WITHOUT PERMISSION it is indeed stealing. Though some may think the stories of folks taking a chainsaw to boats that they didn't build, but were their design (and they were the only builder) are harsh, having designed a few boats and knowing what goes in to it, I'd likely do the same thing!

That said, IIRC the premise here was that it would be WITH PERMISSION of those in power to give it (the folks owning the mold and rights to it, or the designer, whichever again has the rights).

It sounds to me like we should have a "northeast armada" on the Deerfield or something sometime this summer so folks that haven't been able to make it to ALF or the North Branch Armada can try different boats and meet different folks.

I've never been on the Deerfield, but would definitely show up unless I had a conflict that weekend I couldn't move.

Anyone up for setting a date and organizing something? Would give Brewbeer a chance to hop in lots of different boats is my thought....

WARNING: I'm about to play devils advocate!

You know, I'm not sure it would be stealing in my book to pull a mould of an out of production boat*... and I'm fairly sure that it wouldn't be illegal, or actionable in the civil courts to do it either (unless the designer applied for a registered design status).

*To do so for profit, certainly would be stealing in my book... but just so that a particularly good design lives on beyond it's manufacturer's lifespan; I could forgive.

From what I've heard of the history of paddling it was definately common (if not expected) in the UK that people would pull moulds for glass boats pretty much up until rotomoulding came to be (and the idea of paddling glass boats lost popularity), and wasn't the Max II produced by modifying the design of a slalom kayak? Isn't that "stealing" the previous designers work (it would considered so be with pictures, music, or software...

Discuss! [ducks and covers]

And to throw a log onto Krikket's fire, wouldn't it be easy to simply pull in the thwarts, raise or lower the depth or just change something ever-so-slight and claim a 'new' design? I can hear it now, "isnt that an Ocoee?", "OH NO! its NOT... can't you see the difference in the fading sheer line at the point of infantecimal pointerifitude?.. You idiot, even a layman can identify this boat as a Jabberwokey II. You don't even know what a Jabberwokey I is do you?....noob."

Lappie wrote:I throw my 0.02... I just got my new Composite Creations BullDog, and it is light (48lbs, fully outfitted. It handles like an Ocoee, but faster, shorter (10')... No flotation bag needed(built in tanks).

I would look into this if I was you!
http://www.compositecreations.ca/

What Lappie said. The BD is light, playful, tough, and plenty of boat for your size.

Rick