A friend recommended this. Anyone ever try this for knee pain/arthritis?
Thanks!
Big Al
DMSO?
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Re: DMSO?
Most important question here is, "Why do you have knee pain?" Is it because of the arthritis? I ask this question with the hope that any health professionals lurking on our site may be able to steer you to a positive, effective means for alleviating the knee pain or possibly know appropriate treatments available. Here is what the National Institutes on Health (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3916302 have to briefly say about DMSO in the article's abstract:
Of course, there is a nice-sized list of adverse side effects. So, why do you have knee pain? DMSO can be used but it only alleviates your discomfort and does nothing for the problem.
Benefits for arthritis pain appear to be anecdotal rather than clinically proven but it is medically used in Great Britain for treating herpes zoster. Now THAT's good news!Abstract
DMSO is a clear odorless liquid, inexpensively produced as a by-product of the paper industry. It is widely available in the USA as a solvent but its medical use is currently restricted by the FDA to the palliative treatment of interstitial cystitis and to certain experimental applications.
Of course, there is a nice-sized list of adverse side effects. So, why do you have knee pain? DMSO can be used but it only alleviates your discomfort and does nothing for the problem.C-boats Moderator
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing-absolutely nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
Re: DMSO?
Long term use of DMSO topically for arthritic pain has been linked, anecdotally at least, to the formation of ocular cataracts in humans. It is widely used in horses for a variety of ills as it is a good free radical scavenger and has the physical ability to carry other drugs dissolved in it through the skin. It is used topically, orally and intravenously and I have never known it to be linked to cataract formation in equines.
Re: DMSO?
As an MD I can not give advise except to patients I have seen. From an educational standpoint I concur with the above, and have found pure Emu oil to be effective as a topical anti inflammatory to complement conventional medicine.
Re: DMSO?
I was a psychology intern at what is now the Oregon Health Sciences U., from '70 to '72. We had Dr. Jacob come and speak to us, because he was trying DMSO treatments to treat Down Syndrome and other developmental disabilities. We had just hosted another speaker who was using diet therapy to treat Down Syndrome.
The "diet doc" was one of those who sincerely believed what he was saying, though he didn't understand modern methods of evaluating medical treatments. His main sin was that it was costing the families of his patients enormous amounts of money to travel to his office from other states and pay for the special diets.
Dr. Jacob, by contrast, put on quite a show of knowing about double blind studies and repeatable measures. But he believed that DMSO was better than aspirin and Omega3 combined, good for whatever ails you, to a certain extent......
We didn't object to his maintaining that DMSO might be useful for some things, but not for most things. And not for Down Syndrome. He seemed to say, what harm can it cause to try it? He was already complaining that the FDA and other agencies were refusing to sponsor investigational research on DMSO.
I just googled the topic, and Dr. Jacob's thinking on DMSO was still at the top of the heap. But when I read the reference list for his arguments, I noticed that all of the articles were at least 20 years old. And I was bothered by certain studies which *must* have led to attempts at replication. For example, a doc in Arizona reported that DMSO had a marked effect on reducing brain swelling after head injury. That would have been followed up, and the lack of followup reports in the reference list suggests to me that it didn't replicate. Mouse and rat studies? No reports.
I'll have to try DMSO sometime, when I have an aching joint or muscle group. I'm not concerned about its safety. Lots of over-the-counter meds are just as dangerous, or more. Paddlers overuse ibuprofen like it was candy. But I think that if Dr. Jacobs and his friends had not oversold DMSO in the beginning, it might have been of more benefit to everyone.
HOLD THE PRESSES. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2682536/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The linked article indicates that DMSO caused death of brain cells in mice, even at low concentrations. The authors express concern because DMSO is used as part of certain treatments of children. Based on my own reviews of studies of brain-preserving substances (lithium, Depakote, etc.), I would be reluctant to have people slathering DMSO on their skin, even if such use has not *seemed* to cause overt changes in brain function. Effects of substances on brain function and thinking can be difficult to spot in everyday life.
The "diet doc" was one of those who sincerely believed what he was saying, though he didn't understand modern methods of evaluating medical treatments. His main sin was that it was costing the families of his patients enormous amounts of money to travel to his office from other states and pay for the special diets.
Dr. Jacob, by contrast, put on quite a show of knowing about double blind studies and repeatable measures. But he believed that DMSO was better than aspirin and Omega3 combined, good for whatever ails you, to a certain extent......
We didn't object to his maintaining that DMSO might be useful for some things, but not for most things. And not for Down Syndrome. He seemed to say, what harm can it cause to try it? He was already complaining that the FDA and other agencies were refusing to sponsor investigational research on DMSO.
I just googled the topic, and Dr. Jacob's thinking on DMSO was still at the top of the heap. But when I read the reference list for his arguments, I noticed that all of the articles were at least 20 years old. And I was bothered by certain studies which *must* have led to attempts at replication. For example, a doc in Arizona reported that DMSO had a marked effect on reducing brain swelling after head injury. That would have been followed up, and the lack of followup reports in the reference list suggests to me that it didn't replicate. Mouse and rat studies? No reports.
I'll have to try DMSO sometime, when I have an aching joint or muscle group. I'm not concerned about its safety. Lots of over-the-counter meds are just as dangerous, or more. Paddlers overuse ibuprofen like it was candy. But I think that if Dr. Jacobs and his friends had not oversold DMSO in the beginning, it might have been of more benefit to everyone.
HOLD THE PRESSES. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2682536/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The linked article indicates that DMSO caused death of brain cells in mice, even at low concentrations. The authors express concern because DMSO is used as part of certain treatments of children. Based on my own reviews of studies of brain-preserving substances (lithium, Depakote, etc.), I would be reluctant to have people slathering DMSO on their skin, even if such use has not *seemed* to cause overt changes in brain function. Effects of substances on brain function and thinking can be difficult to spot in everyday life.
Re: DMSO?
I never recommended DMSO when I had an integrative practice because there was inadequate research, but it is an excellent carrier agent, so if a person has a risky chemical, even traces on their skin when they put DMSO on their skin it will be carried very efficiently into the body. This is the key reason I did not recommend it for my patients.
Re: DMSO?
During my pain rotation in 1990, as an anesthesiolgy resident we looked into possible benefits from DMSO for our chronic pain patients but never found any good evidence that it was helpful. It is an excellent skin penetrating solvent and will carry whatever it dissolves through the skin, including things that would be harmful.
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Bruce Farrenkopf
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Re: DMSO?
Wow! Impressive replies. C1ers would seem to be an intelligent bunch. Who would have guessed? 
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ohioboater
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Re: DMSO?
So you're saying C1ers are at risk for a stroke of genius?ezwater wrote:kneeling for long periods forces more blood into the brain. Clotted blood, too.
Re: DMSO?
OK here are some rambling thoughts which are I hope not OT but more a 90-degree angle...
First, how certain are you that your knee pain is entirely bad cartilege & how much tight muscles restricting flexibility. When I took some Yoga classes 2 years ago I was shocked at the differences in flexibility between people in the class who had practiced yoga for a long time, and beginners (like me). Yes, I do (did) have arthritic degeneration, but I have also so discovered over many years that MD.s love to blame everything painful on "arthritis". Usually ( or at least often) based upon X-rays, which easy to obtain & easy to interpret, and will usually show osteoarthritis in nearly everyone over 40!
{{{ Side comment: In my own personal case, within the past 18 months I have twice been given sloppy diagnostics based upon quick-o X-rays. First case was a hand issue: Diagnosis one: "You have lots of arthritis, and your issue could only be treated by a joint replacement, which I do not recommend"; (turned out that this famous hand surgeon only looked at flat X-ray -- never at my actual physical hand; and his "diagnosis" referred to my index finger, injured at age 10 -- not my 5th finger, which was in question -- oops)). Diagnosis two: " Dupuytren's disease" -- based upon actual visual/physical examination -- & agrees with everything I've learned & observed since. Second case: Diagnosis one by surgeon (based upon X-ray): " ... some secondary osteoarthritis, possible sciatica (etc) ", etc etc.. Diagnosis two: after MRI ordered by my physiatrist: "Extensive damage to meniscus (caused by twisting injury)". Yes!!! There's just a lot that X-rays don't show, and in this case it mattered}}}
I'm not trying to belittle surgeons generally -- the (multiple) ones that have actually worked on me were fantastically great -- just pointing out that X-rays are cheap and easy and they show a lot -- but not everything. And there is also the old adage: when you have a nice assortment of shiny hammers, everything looks like a nail, and when you (believe you) see what you're looking for, why look further. That's where I've found that a physiatrist can come in handy as a counter-weight, so to speak.
But my point is that most of us growing up in Western civilisation have very little knee and ankle flexibility compared with those in societies where kneeling is a part of everyday life. If your leg muscles have been tight forever, they are not going to suddenly stretch out and give you flexibility when you get in a boat, and that lack of flexibility can be very painful. Also, in many cases one outcome of surgery is shortening/tightness of muscles and associated connective tissue. It can take a long period of sustained regular exercises to get improvement (as I've been personally aware after my own knee surgeries). There aren't any promises or guarantees, but I think that all C-boaters (at least those over 16!) could benefit from a regular loosening/stretching routine. I've been fortunate enough to do some Yoga with a certified PT- turned Yoga instructor, who regularly holds courses to acquaint PT's with Yoga and have found him very helpful, and I think there is a lot to be learned, but at present there isn't a lot of interchange, and certainly not between surgeons and Yogis!!
So just sayin' -- for any individual, pursuing better flexibility may or may not be helpful, but we kneeling C-boaters are a special group, and I'm not sure there aren't helpful out-side-the-box options really worth exploring.
First, how certain are you that your knee pain is entirely bad cartilege & how much tight muscles restricting flexibility. When I took some Yoga classes 2 years ago I was shocked at the differences in flexibility between people in the class who had practiced yoga for a long time, and beginners (like me). Yes, I do (did) have arthritic degeneration, but I have also so discovered over many years that MD.s love to blame everything painful on "arthritis". Usually ( or at least often) based upon X-rays, which easy to obtain & easy to interpret, and will usually show osteoarthritis in nearly everyone over 40!
{{{ Side comment: In my own personal case, within the past 18 months I have twice been given sloppy diagnostics based upon quick-o X-rays. First case was a hand issue: Diagnosis one: "You have lots of arthritis, and your issue could only be treated by a joint replacement, which I do not recommend"; (turned out that this famous hand surgeon only looked at flat X-ray -- never at my actual physical hand; and his "diagnosis" referred to my index finger, injured at age 10 -- not my 5th finger, which was in question -- oops)). Diagnosis two: " Dupuytren's disease" -- based upon actual visual/physical examination -- & agrees with everything I've learned & observed since. Second case: Diagnosis one by surgeon (based upon X-ray): " ... some secondary osteoarthritis, possible sciatica (etc) ", etc etc.. Diagnosis two: after MRI ordered by my physiatrist: "Extensive damage to meniscus (caused by twisting injury)". Yes!!! There's just a lot that X-rays don't show, and in this case it mattered}}}
I'm not trying to belittle surgeons generally -- the (multiple) ones that have actually worked on me were fantastically great -- just pointing out that X-rays are cheap and easy and they show a lot -- but not everything. And there is also the old adage: when you have a nice assortment of shiny hammers, everything looks like a nail, and when you (believe you) see what you're looking for, why look further. That's where I've found that a physiatrist can come in handy as a counter-weight, so to speak.
But my point is that most of us growing up in Western civilisation have very little knee and ankle flexibility compared with those in societies where kneeling is a part of everyday life. If your leg muscles have been tight forever, they are not going to suddenly stretch out and give you flexibility when you get in a boat, and that lack of flexibility can be very painful. Also, in many cases one outcome of surgery is shortening/tightness of muscles and associated connective tissue. It can take a long period of sustained regular exercises to get improvement (as I've been personally aware after my own knee surgeries). There aren't any promises or guarantees, but I think that all C-boaters (at least those over 16!) could benefit from a regular loosening/stretching routine. I've been fortunate enough to do some Yoga with a certified PT- turned Yoga instructor, who regularly holds courses to acquaint PT's with Yoga and have found him very helpful, and I think there is a lot to be learned, but at present there isn't a lot of interchange, and certainly not between surgeons and Yogis!!
So just sayin' -- for any individual, pursuing better flexibility may or may not be helpful, but we kneeling C-boaters are a special group, and I'm not sure there aren't helpful out-side-the-box options really worth exploring.
C-1's are the Gods of the River