New Millbrook boat for wife - Flashback vs. Shacho

[wildwaterc2]

I'm going to purchase a new boat for my wife, and have narrowed the choice to Flashback vs. Shacho. Each of these has a shallow arch bottom without a lot of edge. The Shacho is shorter, with more rocker, and drier. I've paddled a Royalex Flashback of each generation but not a Shacho. This is going to be a surprise for her, so I can't really get her test paddling (and I don't know where I could find one near where I am in western VA anyway). I would appreciate input. I've already talked with Kaz about it, but I'm looking for additional input (though Kaz is welcome to add his input here also).

I am a solid canoeist (you can see shots of some of my C2 fun on the pages for the Beguin, Feeling and Duet). My wife in contrast is skilled on the river, but a novice to intermediate canoeist. She guided rafts on the Arkansas during college and knows how to read a river, but her canoe time on rivers is modest. She can competently read water like the Ocoee, but she is not comfortable in a solo canoe there - her solo canoe comfort level is more like Chattooga Section III or the Nantahala. She is pretty average size - 5'5" and 130 something and mid 40s.

Her prior solo canoes she has most whitewater time in are two of my father's old boats - a 1991 Mohawk XL13 (pre-tumblehome being added - super wide) and a later Probe 14 - the Probe was better than the XL but each was obviously way too big. On easier water (like Balcony Falls on the James, or just moving water), she paddles a Wenonah Sandpiper, which is a great boat for her. She had an old Hahn earlier on but did not like C-boats solo (she's ok in the Duet with me - we've run stuff like the Ocoee and Brown's Canyon in the Duet).

She does both river cruising and low key slalom. She likes smaller, technical rivers (the Cartecay in Georgia is a favorite).

I'm set on a Millbrook for the weight - I want it to be a boat she can carry to and from the river, including longer walks like on the Chattooga. She'll beat it up some but I'm familiar with patching boats from my wildwater days.

My default boat is the Flashback - primarily I think it will be easier for her to drive the boat forward than the Shacho, and that it will still turn adequately. My experience is that for beginner/intermediate paddlers, difficulty getting good sustained forward drive is often a limiting factor, moreso than being able to turn - also I think that beginner/intermediate paddlers can really struggle with managing sidewinds and headwinds. I do think the Shacho is a viable choice also. I think the Shacho will not only be drier, but will also have more initial stability with its flatter shallow arch than the Flashback. I do wonder how the two boats compare in ability to go straight - for example, given the same paddler, would you be able to do a different number of forward strokes before having to mix in a J or something?

I don't see the other edgier boats as being good choices for her. I'm not interested in the super short canoes - the Shacho is as short as I could see considering.

I appreciate your input.

[ezwater]

For what you want, I would take a Rival over a Flashback.

A friend paddles nothing but Rivals, because of their good cruising, predictable ww behavior, and ease of rolling.

If your wife can learn cab forward paddling, she will not need to J stroke or rudder very often.

[Mikey B]

The Shacho is a really sweet boat...and a great looker too! Aren't there a couple down your way? It seems like I've seen a few at Millbrook Day type runs with Wendy?

[wildwaterc2]

ezwater, I had thought about the Rival also - I probably should have mentioned it too. I have wondered if it might be on the big side for her versus say a typical male. The Rival does appear to have a good all around hull design.

[bruce]

No contest in my mind.... Shacho. My wife & I have both owned Flashbacks (ABS) & currently own a Shacho (2 seasons, about 60 days on the water). My wife is only slightly larger than yours, at about the same level, paddles OC2 with me & was blown away with how easy the Shacho paddled. It accelerates very well in a straight line with little effort. The learning curve was really a snap.

[wildwaterc2]

Bruce, thanks for your input. Since you've paddled each hull a good bit it sounds like, can you describe how they compare in more detail?

[VTBoater]

I can only speak to the Shacho, but I love mine for all the reasons you mention. It's crazy dry, and I'm a lot bigger than your wife (5'9' 160#). I'm a mid-40s woman who wanted a boat I could carry myself, and I have no problem lifting the Shacho from the ground to my head, even when it's wet and full of gear. It's been surprisingly durable in the two years I've had it.

I'm just a class II/III duffer, and my first canoe was a Blackfly, in which I never cared about hitting rocks. So the Millbrook got some cringe-worthy scrapes and bangs the first couple of times I took it out, but nothing went deeper the surface coating. (Yeah, the Shacho is a LOT faster than an Ion, and at first I kept ferrying it like the Hulk and then smashing into the rocks in the eddy. )

[wildwaterc2]

VT Boater, thanks for your input and experiences. Did you get the standard layup?

[craig]

We have one of each. Shacho is definitely a drier more nimble boat. I'd give the flashback a slight edge in top end speed and stability but not by a lot. The sharper ends of the Flashback will probably need a bit more maintenance.

[VTBoater]

Yes, standard layup. I originally asked about a heavier layup, but Kaz talked me out of it, and he was (of course!) right. It would have added weight and been unnecessary.

[cheajack]

At the expense of thread jacking I recall a while back there were mumblings about a Millbrook Armada. How about someone take the lead and get it rolling (in a new thread).

[wildwaterc2]

Thanks for all of your input. I ordered a Shacho today.

[wildwaterc2]

Thanks to all who offered input. After two days of paddling the Shacho it has been a great fit for my wife. The first two days ended up being a canoe course with Jimmy Holcombe of NOC, who is a stellar instructor - I tagged along at a distance the end of the 2nd day and it was interesting hearing how he taught my wife and the other student. She paddled the Little Tennessee and the Nantahala on those two days. The stability was sufficient for her, with great secondary stability, and the maneuverability and lightness were great. She caught more eddies those days than she has in her life, along with solo surfing for the first time.

I paddled the boat the short distance through Nantahala falls, and it was impressively dry.

The build quality is great. You can see the mold seam line easily with a little extra resin there, but after it gets more scratches you'll hardly notice, and it is a whitewater boat after all. Kaz did a great job on the color request too - I sent him a picture of a Wenonah boat in their Caribbean color as the target, and you can see how it turned out on his Facebook page (Shacho 40). I really like how he uses a pigmented outer layer with resin instead of gelcoat - much tougher and also lighter. The outfitting Kaz put in was also very well done.

If you can't tell, I am very pleased with both the boat quality and the boat design. I can see why the Shacho is so popular, and John's boats are a great value.