kayaking to oc1 what a good starter boat? or is c1 better.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:23 am

ezwater wrote:I'm with FarrenBruce, or whatever. Trouble is, we have very few new, true c-1 designs to compare with converted kayaks. C-1 designs have not caught up. One consequence of this is that people paddling converted kayaks do not have a modern basis for comparison.

So, Larry, if you're happy with conversions, that's fine, but I don't see any reason to paddle ANY kayak converted to c-1 that I would not choose to paddle as a kayak. That pretty much closes the field for me.

i'm kind of with bruce too.
but i'm not sure what you meant, ez
i know my post wasn't very clear (they never are), but i never said or meant to say that "any" kayak makes a good conversion. just like with ANY type of boat, incuding "true" c1s, some are bad and some are good.
i just get my panties in a wad when you guys only recommend these ancient boats as options for c1ing. honestly, i can't think of any kayaker i know that would enjoy ANY of the four (plastic) true c1s.... maybe the wheelboy, but even that is kind of obsolite already. the sad truth is.. just what you said, "C-1 designs have not caught up."
....and sadly they never will. just ask marko how much money they're making off the wheelboy. hence NO FATBOY!
i fully support new c1 products... i tested a cascade when they came out but thought my viper oc was more fun so i didn't buy one. but i did buy an atom when they first came out, my wheelboy was one of the first 5 shipped to the states. if something else comes out that looks promising i'll be first in line, but in the mean time, i'm not going to paddle (or recomend) a marginal 15 or 20 year old boat just because it's designed as a c1. not with so many other choices..

and you know

it's not WHAT you paddle, but how many blades you use!

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:52 pm

How about a kayak conversion that dates back about 25 years

[img]http://www.wwslalom.net/paddling/misc/image6.jpg[/img]

Post by **sbroam** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:30 pm

Bob's hard core. Or is it "old school"? "Old corps"?

You go Bob - I've got three Dancer XSs lined up in the garage for the kids, at least one of them will go under the knife. I think there is at least one other notable C-boater 'round here that got started in a converted XS...

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:48 pm

The boat above was a "Spectrum". A Perception factory conversion of one of their kayaks. Worst boat I ever owned. After paddling that one for less than a year, I converted a Dancer, which was much better. The Gyramax came out a bit later and was an improvement over both, fortunately.

Think I played the hole at T-Ville much?

[img]http://www.wwslalom.net/paddling/misc/image14.jpg[/img]

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:23 pm

Larry (Horne), what kayak choices do you see? I kayak as well, and have been looking for a modern kayak with slalomish handling, and there aren't any. I have very little interest in what is known as playboating. I want a boat that flies back and forth between eddies on opposite sides of the river, sailing across waves. Someone said I should look at the new DR Pintail XL, but he admitted in the same breath that the boat is slow compared to old school boats. The Jackson SuperHero is slow compared to old school boats. All the modern designs are slow, and while they play holes and spin on waves better, few would want to take one onto a slalom course.

I am old, tall, and heavy, and I need a boat, c-1 or kayak, that makes up for my unavoidable deficiencies, and helps me get around rivers more confidently. I don't need a "little red wagon" for an activity of less interest to me, playboating.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:47 pm

ezwater wrote:Larry (Horne), what kayak choices do you see? I kayak as well, and have been looking for a modern kayak with slalomish handling, and there aren't any. I have very little interest in what is known as playboating. I want a boat that flies back and forth between eddies on opposite sides of the river, sailing across waves. Someone said I should look at the new DR Pintail XL, but he admitted in the same breath that the boat is slow compared to old school boats. The Jackson SuperHero is slow compared to old school boats. All the modern designs are slow, and while they play holes and spin on waves better, few would want to take one onto a slalom course.

I am old, tall, and heavy, and I need a boat, c-1 or kayak, that makes up for my unavoidable deficiencies, and helps me get around rivers more confidently. I don't need a "little red wagon" for an activity of less interest to me, playboating.

i think the original poster was asking about a creeker/river runner, not a slalom boat.
but to answer your question....
just like you, i don't see any modern kayak choice. you are stuck in the eighties dude!

honestly though, i never research anything but creekers, so i don't know of any modern boats that are good old schoolers. but it does seem that some designs are trending that way a little. it sounds to me like you would be most happy in a slalom boat or viper or someting like that. but i bet that's what you paddle!

we all know that every design trades one attribute for another...
so i paddle three boats; a pyranha burn creek boat conversion, a wheelboy c1 playboat, and a c1 race boat (i don't know what model it is, but it satisfies my need for speed)! if i could have ONLY one, it would be the creek boat. it's no race boat, but it's got plenty of speed. it's a blast to paddle slalom style, it's very comfortable, and, most importantly, it makes me look good (covers my a**) in the hard stuff!

peace

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:54 am

Larry, what I want is a river runner that is more of a slalom boat than a playboat or creekboat.

I think the pendulum will swing back, one reason being that when I make my trash runs on the Nantahala, so few of the people in playboats or creek boats are really doing anything with them. It figures, because on the majority of rivers with consistent water, there aren't a lot of creeky drops, and there aren't a lot of high class playspots. Most of what IS there, I could handle easily, more conveniently, in a Pirouette or an Atom. To take full advantage of such rivers (even the Ocoee), it certainly doesn't hurt to have a fast boat.

Development of new, long, fast boats had virtually stopped by 2000.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:36 am

Larry, what I want is a river runner that is more of a slalom boat than a playboat or creekboat.

that would be a cool boat to have.. i'll take one in plastic.

michielv · Post by **michielv** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:32 pm

ezwater wrote: So, Larry, if you're happy with conversions, that's fine, but I don't see any reason to paddle ANY kayak converted to c-1 that I would not choose to paddle as a kayak. That pretty much closes the field for me.

One very good reason might be if you're 6'4" like me it is pretty hard to find a short freestyle boat that fits long legs (it is improving though, but still, if you weigh only 80 kilo's a lot of boats with legroom are way too big because manufacturers assume if you're over 6' you also weigh 200 pounds?). However, as a C-1 this is not an issue anymore.

So paddling a C-1 opens up a whole lot of designs made for smaller/shorter people for me.

Just my 2 cents,

Michiel

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:33 pm

As long as we're talking about a possible OC1, the Spark is as close to a dual-purpose slalom-cruiser as I've found. It's certainly faster than any short kayak/C1 conversions - in fact, it's faster than most kayaks, period.

At least with me paddling.

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:36 am

Yes, Bob P, it has occurred to me that I could be happy in a slalom open. Maybe a Hooter, though, rather than a Spark. The Hooter would behave more like my Zealot than the Spark would.

NateOC · Post by **NateOC** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:40 am

The Spark's awfully fun though.

squeakyknee · Post by **squeakyknee** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:04 am

I agree with Larry on the whole "OLD" plastic C-1 scenario. If I had paddled one of those to start with I prolly would have stuck with openboats and not gotten into C-1 as much.the Atom and cascade make better planters than they do C-1s..no offence to all you who love them, but they are darn boring.
the 1st C-1 I got into was a friends pyrahna playboar( don'y remeber the model) it was small and a bit tippy, but hey, you gotta learn to roll sometime? I do like the larger slalomn and race boats, but they are dedicated to a purpose.
I have yet to paddle a Burn that has been converted but they look pretty good. I do think the Tareau would be a good compromise between C-1 and OC-1.
Shawn

Bob P · Post by **Bob P** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:32 pm

ezwater wrote:Yes, Bob P, it has occurred to me that I could be happy in a slalom open. Maybe a Hooter, though, rather than a Spark. The Hooter would behave more like my Zealot than the Spark would.

Most of my paddling is done in a slalom C1, but I go back and forth between it, the Spark, a Reactor and my Cobra OC1.

I find that switching back and forth between boats improves my paddling skills overall, simply because the each take a much different technique.