Last Gasp for Plastic C1 Designs?

[Mike W.]

Can't wait to get the thigh straps in and to get it on the water !

Hey Martin, You're putting thigh straps in your Pagan? I saw a photo of your knee block. That thing is HOT! I just assumed you'd go with a lap-belt.

[sbroam]

...
also, why the hades hasnt someone come out with a QUALITY conversion saddle for the market. seriosly!!!! half the reason more people dont start c-1ing is becuase they have no clue how to convert one. i think we all have spent WAY to much time trying to figure out way to convert out boats. i cant be that hard to produce a c-1 pedistal.

joey

Good question. Liquid Logic had a few that were out there. I thought I heard at one time that Eric Zitzow (www.kayakoutfitting.com) was trying to buy the Dagger or Perception pedestal mold, but haven't heard anything else. I called Perception once and they told me they wouldn't sell the pedestals separately from a factory conversion because of liability issues. So, why not? I dunno! Let's do it.

[adamin]

The issues involved, from my limited understanding:
1) Liability of product, especially as it would be installed by a paddler, and not the factory
2) Fit - so many different boats and sizes, some requiring the pedestal to help support and reinforce the hull
3) Cost - tooling up for such a thing isn't cheap. There are some REALLY SWEET composite pedestals out there in various forms (Trevors, the one's Drakar uses, and another companies (in Europe, as I recall) that are really sweet too), but they are all considered 'too expensive' by a lot of paddlers.

For converting most boats I've always felt the old "Team ETC" system worked really well, and could be completed by most folks.

Randy's Fence Rail Conversion is also great, but does require a little bit more skill (not much though!).

Unfortunately they all require you to DO something, and aren't simple "plug and play"....

In the end, unless you creek, glass is where it's at, and will be for the forseeable future.

Which is exactly why the Fatboy SHOULD be built:)

[sbroam]

The thing that bugs me is that there are several (Perception, Dagger, LL, Noah, etc) "tooled up" molds out there moldering away in the back corners of warehouses and factories. I know *I* can cobble together a pedestal and other parts to convert a boat in a couple of hours, but not everybody is that handy. I'm not really that handy either - my approach requires nothing more than common hand tools and contact cement - just a few materials you can't pick up at the local hardware store. [Don't let me get anywhere near resin and glass - yikes.] An off the shelf, not quite drop in kit would definitely have a market. I don't understand the liability angle either - apparently we are altogether too litigious when folks won't produce something because they think there is an outside chance somebody will figure out a way to blame the manufacturer when the consumer installs the product incorrectly.

[Joey]

i have never been to impressed by the old perception saddle. it wa heavy and uncomfortable. anyway, wounder what it would take to make a saddle that would fit under the front and back bulkhead, and mount to the seat bolts on the side of the cock-pit. that way it wouldnt require any drilling into the boat. seems like it wouldnt be that hard. thats basically all i do with my outfitting.

i think there was a guy in europe making a glass pedistal very similar to this. i saw it on playak.com a while back.

joey

[Joey]

i found a link to that saddle.

http://playak.com/article.php?sid=1128

does any one know what it would cost to make a saddle out of glass like this? might be able to do something cool on my own.

joey

[cheajack]

IMO, the ideal conversion saddle would fit under the front and rear foam walls and bolt on the seat bolt holes, BUT the seat would be integrated onto a frame or rails that could ratchet or adjust forward or back so that each paddler could find the appropriate "sweet spot" for the saddle location regartless of his shoe size, leg length, weight, or model of butt boat converted (ie, play vs creek). Just bolt her in then go to the river and play with the adjustment till you got it right!

[sbroam]

OK, here's another idea.

Part I : Rail Instead of a whole integrated pedestal, how about a plastic/glass channel 3" wide and with a series of holes in the "flange", not unlike slot angle. The 3" dimension would be in the "web", 3" wide so it would fit under the bow and stern walls (typically 3" minicell). The holes would give you a variety of locations for lower strap anchors. User cuts rail to length. Include "plates" to be used at ends of rail to secure the rail to the walls (through bolted with nylon hardware) - sim to "bat wings".

Part II : Sheet Include a sheet of thin plastic to place under the "rail" to span from thigh hook to thigh hook. Leave this loose for the user to cut it to fit, perhaps include some means to fix to the rail in the center. foam to be glued by the user in the correct locations

Part III : Knee cups Precut knee cups/wedges to be fixed to the sheet by the user - could be peel and stick or industrial strength velcro?

Part IV : Pedestal A minicell pedestal "blank" with channel to fit on the "rail" with "pins" to secure the pedestal in the desired location on the rail.

Variations :

*make the pedestal of plastic (hollow)
*add a wrap around "hip grabber" to the pedestal (minicell or plastic)
*thigh staps with connectors designed for the holes in the rail
*???

More of a kit than a one piece drop in pedestal.

[Larry Horne]

this thread's been hijacked by kayak convert0rs!

[billcanoes]

I totally agree with Joey that we need a plastic c1 creeker- I think the fink is an ok boat- I no longer have my business- but the fatboy design looked awesome- IMHO it looked like a wide GUS- but the GUS is a nice boat- just the rails at the knees dug into me- I think the wheelboy is great as a playboat and for heavier paddlers I think the Shaggys boats are awesome- they are glass but the layups and durability are great-

I'm also all in favor of pooling together to build our own
IFF the Fatboy never makes it- Marko SEND the plug to the states

-Bill

[michielv]

...
also, why the hades hasnt someone come out with a QUALITY conversion saddle for the market. seriosly!!!! half the reason more people dont start c-1ing is becuase they have no clue how to convert one. i think we all have spent WAY to much time trying to figure out way to convert out boats. i cant be that hard to produce a c-1 pedistal.

joey

Good question. Liquid Logic had a few that were out there. I thought I heard at one time that Eric Zitzow (www.kayakoutfitting.com) was trying to buy the Dagger or Perception pedestal mold, but haven't heard anything else. I called Perception once and they told me they wouldn't sell the pedestals separately from a factory conversion because of liability issues. So, why not? I dunno! Let's do it.

Markus Maas has. Granted, he is located in Germany so a bit far but then again, he does have e-mail and a C-1 seat is not too big to ship over the pond

[Kanukid]

WOW,

Ok, the Playak article by Markus. That has to be the cleanest setup I've ever seen for a playboat!! In the article he states that you can order a boat from select manufacturers. Is this true? If so, I'll take a Release.

Michielv - Do you know if Markus has the saddle premade and ready to ship?

[michielv]

I've seen a few boats converted by him and the guy is simply awesome.

He even has some glue developed especially for him that sticks to plastic a whole lot better than the average stuff you can get at DIY stores.

As far as I know he does convert selected boats because he has access to the hulls relatively easily but he can convert any boat you want. Not sure about availability of his seats but as he does this on a pro/semi-pro basis I figure he will have a few seats available right away.

As a matter of fact I met him twice surfing the ocean waves (he does so in a C-1, of course) and he is a really nice guy. Just e-mail him (I forgot his email address but this works too: http://playak.com/index.php?option=com_ ... 35&Itemid= ) and see what he can do for you.

If you talk to him, please say hi from me, the guy with the green plastic Mega Surfkayak.

[the great gonzo]

Can't wait to get the thigh straps in and to get it on the water !

Hey Martin, You're putting thigh straps in your Pagan? I saw a photo of your knee block. That thing is HOT! I just assumed you'd go with a lap-belt.

Hey Mike, since the Pagan is, as are all of Shaggy Designs C1's, equipped with thigh strap anchors that are laminated right into the hull, I might as well take advantage of them. And yes, that molded in knee block is SWEET !!

I'll post some pic's once I got it all set up.


martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!

[Bruce Farrenkopf]

What happened to the message about a cooperative effort to make plastic C1's by using a fiberglass mold to cut down on costs, etc? I can't locate it . I realize it would be a big undertaking with lots of problems to solve (especially financing), but it an idea worth discussing in more detail on a separate post. Anything can happen.

A collective effort by C1ers to design the ultimate creeker would be a fascinating exercise .

How many plastic boats can be made off of a fiberglass mold?

SYOTR,
Bruce