Spence,
Where are you skiing in Montana? I live in Western Montana and would be glad to help you combine some paddling along with the turns. If we continue to have mild winter days in the valleys I will be getting out regularly to prepare for a slalom race near Seattle, the first weekend of March. I have 2 Ocoees, a Millbrook Defiant, a Caption and assorted other canoes. I Tele ski, mostly area stuff but some backcountry. Check out Lost Trail ski area if you come to the very western part of the state. Usually the best snow in MT... $29 lift tickets. Anyway, would be happy to show you around on either the frozen or liquid stuff. As for the Prelude, I agree with what everyone has said and as an Ocoee paddler, encourage you to give it some more time. I had some serious misgivings after getting my Ocoee, falling back to the Millbrook for difficult water like the Lochsa, because it was more forgiving. Now I would only take the Ocoee. All the twitchy and edgy stuff is now manuverabilty and control. Good luck with the boat and have a great ski trip. If you get near Missoula or Hamilton, give a call...406-546-8960
Alan
havin some boatin issues.........Any Help Please?
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Re: havin some boatin issues.........Any Help Please?
Just a guess, but any canoe without footpegs is going to be sketchy. I once bought a skeeter from someone with the same complaint. And they didn't have the boat totally outfitted. Could not convince them that it was the outfitting.bamaboater wrote:.... The prelude is completely different from my ovation, I understand that, but what is the deal. It feels like I'm going to dump in every turn or eddy grab I make and technical creek moves have become nearly impossible without the sketchy feeling of dumping. I did do some modification to the prelude, mainly boring out the bulkhead, I'm 6'4"/215lbs, to get my legs in it and also removed the footpegs, to get my big butt 13's tucked under my butt.
I'm also with the other post, why a bulkhead and straps?
If necessary you can extend the saddle, and reinstall the footbracing. It's certainly nice to be able to hop in and out at will,
something that you'll never achieve with straps.
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bamaboater
- Pain Boater
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:00 pm
"Just a guess, but any canoe without footpegs is going to be sketchy."
Phil, I hear what you're saying, but really, for a 6'4", 215 lb'er with size 13, the footpegs were in the way. Now, my feet just tuck up under my butt and up against the saddle.
I'm going to lower the saddle and bore out the bulkhead even more. If I can achieve more room, I may think about reinstalling the footpegs. But up to this point, I've never really used footpegs, because I have glued some foam in the hull bottom under my ankles for support and it has helped a ton.
Phil, I hear what you're saying, but really, for a 6'4", 215 lb'er with size 13, the footpegs were in the way. Now, my feet just tuck up under my butt and up against the saddle.
I'm going to lower the saddle and bore out the bulkhead even more. If I can achieve more room, I may think about reinstalling the footpegs. But up to this point, I've never really used footpegs, because I have glued some foam in the hull bottom under my ankles for support and it has helped a ton.
The Ovation is extremely stable. Sounds like the prelude is not. I would work on technique and practice on some easy sections until you are used to the chines.
To show my confidence in the Ovation, I gave mine to my wife. It is super stable but will perform when heeled onto its "Ghost Chine". You practically need to try and flip the thing before the chine engages. Otherwise you remain on the "softer" edge. Edgy boats take getting used to. It may take a season or two but keep with it.
I dont know what your "style" is but heres a few things to keep in mind....
1.) keep your head over your hips, i.e. dont lean out of the boat.
2.) keep your strokes close to the hull, dont be reaching for the stars to grab an eddy, let your boat first penetrate the eddy line before making your moves.
3.) Your power stroke will need to be precise. Upper hand outboard, scrape the blade along the side of the boat. If you try to imagine your blade going through the bottom side , center, of the canoe, thats ideal, we cant do that so next best thing is "under the chine". Better power stroke, less correction. This is important in a shorter edgy boat. You lose speed to less waterline and Im sure the thing is QUITE manuverable
.
If you already knew this , I apologise for stepping on your toes.
Id just practice on some easier runs , and like ADAM said flip in a pool a few times for wet exiting.
(something I need to do in one of my boats because I just dont know how it will go yet, lol)
Its almost spring in the rockies, Im stoked!
To show my confidence in the Ovation, I gave mine to my wife. It is super stable but will perform when heeled onto its "Ghost Chine". You practically need to try and flip the thing before the chine engages. Otherwise you remain on the "softer" edge. Edgy boats take getting used to. It may take a season or two but keep with it.
I dont know what your "style" is but heres a few things to keep in mind....
1.) keep your head over your hips, i.e. dont lean out of the boat.
2.) keep your strokes close to the hull, dont be reaching for the stars to grab an eddy, let your boat first penetrate the eddy line before making your moves.
3.) Your power stroke will need to be precise. Upper hand outboard, scrape the blade along the side of the boat. If you try to imagine your blade going through the bottom side , center, of the canoe, thats ideal, we cant do that so next best thing is "under the chine". Better power stroke, less correction. This is important in a shorter edgy boat. You lose speed to less waterline and Im sure the thing is QUITE manuverable
.If you already knew this , I apologise for stepping on your toes.
Id just practice on some easier runs , and like ADAM said flip in a pool a few times for wet exiting.
(something I need to do in one of my boats because I just dont know how it will go yet, lol)
Its almost spring in the rockies, Im stoked!
"Don't Panic"
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When going from my Outrage to my Ocoee, I had the some of the same issues, my confidence was taking a beating and so was I. I fixed my outfitting as suggested by others and it really helped.
For what it is worth, another thing that I continue to work on with the help of my crew is to paddle more up front in the boat with less correcting strokes in the back, especially in a shorter boat like the Ocoee. This has helped me to drive the boat where I want it to go versus corrections strokes that slows my momentum and taking me off the edge in squirrely currents and waves. I kind of think of it as skiing, edge to edge. When the ski goes flat is usually when I have problems skiing.
We did some filming last year and it was very helpful to see how I paddle compared to better paddlers in my crew. It really has made me think more about my paddle strokes. I now try to take better up front strokes and less correction strokes.
These performance, edgy boats are less forgiving, but they do respond if you do the right thing. With more practise and focus, I think my Ocoee and Skeeter will make me a better paddler in the long run.
For what it is worth, another thing that I continue to work on with the help of my crew is to paddle more up front in the boat with less correcting strokes in the back, especially in a shorter boat like the Ocoee. This has helped me to drive the boat where I want it to go versus corrections strokes that slows my momentum and taking me off the edge in squirrely currents and waves. I kind of think of it as skiing, edge to edge. When the ski goes flat is usually when I have problems skiing.
We did some filming last year and it was very helpful to see how I paddle compared to better paddlers in my crew. It really has made me think more about my paddle strokes. I now try to take better up front strokes and less correction strokes.
These performance, edgy boats are less forgiving, but they do respond if you do the right thing. With more practise and focus, I think my Ocoee and Skeeter will make me a better paddler in the long run.
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bamaboater
- Pain Boater
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:00 pm
yesterday, I lowered the saddle about 1 3/4 " with a gigli saw. I got in and paddled around on flat water and really felt a lot more of a part of the boat, not just some extremity. My hips are now about level with the gunnels as; lowering the center of gravity considerably and really creating a better sense of stability. yea!
Now I'm going to work on widening out my stance some more. I will post an update.
Thank you all who've responded so far. It has given me a lot of to think about.
Now I'm going to work on widening out my stance some more. I will post an update.
Thank you all who've responded so far. It has given me a lot of to think about.
I've paddled a Prelude and I've paddled an Ovation - you've definitely gone from one extreme to the other! Currently I paddle a Zoom and love it but I found the Prelude super slippery - even compared to a Zoom!
I also know someone who loves to paddle challenging rivers and he always says he'd never do them in a small boat - he likes an Ocoee or bigger.
So, I think you should keep your Prelude and paddle it on easy, low-consequence rivers but paddle aggressively. Keep your Ovation for now for the tougher rivers and in a year or two, you might find you're pulling out the Prelude to paddle all the time over the Ovation.
Good luck!
I also know someone who loves to paddle challenging rivers and he always says he'd never do them in a small boat - he likes an Ocoee or bigger.
So, I think you should keep your Prelude and paddle it on easy, low-consequence rivers but paddle aggressively. Keep your Ovation for now for the tougher rivers and in a year or two, you might find you're pulling out the Prelude to paddle all the time over the Ovation.
Good luck!
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the great gonzo
- Paddling Benefactor
- Posts: 1718
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:03 am
- Location: Montréal, Québec
I am using a Prelude, it's still my favorite open boat of all times (I am ~6'2" with a 36" inseam and I weigh ~190-195 lbs).
I also lowered the saddle height somewhat (~1 1/2 inches) and carved the bulkhead out to give me a wider knee stance as. I use a lap-belt (VW beetle seat belt with quick release buckle), and I raised the back of the saddle by ~3 inches to support me better.
When I use the lapbelt, I don't use the foot pegs, I just slide them all the way back. When I feel that the lap belt is not appropriate or when it's well below freezing I just slide them back forward. In Order to be able to slide my footpegs far enough back I mounted them on an aluminum plate that moves them about 3" back.
Keep at it, the key to being comfortable in the Prelude is to get used to the low primary stability and let the boat move somewhat under your body. Paddling it aggressively from the bow and having it always slightly tilted on one edge really helps me.
Once I got used to it's behavior and adjusted my paddling style (my previous open boats were a Rival and a Rampage), I got really comfortable and confident in it and nowadays use it to run class 4 and up rapids.
martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!
I also lowered the saddle height somewhat (~1 1/2 inches) and carved the bulkhead out to give me a wider knee stance as. I use a lap-belt (VW beetle seat belt with quick release buckle), and I raised the back of the saddle by ~3 inches to support me better.
When I use the lapbelt, I don't use the foot pegs, I just slide them all the way back. When I feel that the lap belt is not appropriate or when it's well below freezing I just slide them back forward. In Order to be able to slide my footpegs far enough back I mounted them on an aluminum plate that moves them about 3" back.
Keep at it, the key to being comfortable in the Prelude is to get used to the low primary stability and let the boat move somewhat under your body. Paddling it aggressively from the bow and having it always slightly tilted on one edge really helps me.
Once I got used to it's behavior and adjusted my paddling style (my previous open boats were a Rival and a Rampage), I got really comfortable and confident in it and nowadays use it to run class 4 and up rapids.
martin a.k.a. the great gonzo!
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing - Henry David Thoreau
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bamaboater
- Pain Boater
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:00 pm
kwik update.........
lowered saddle to about 7". cleaned out some more foam around the knees to slide in more.
Paddled S. Sauty Creek yesterday over in Alabama. all solid III and IV and it was awesome!!! I couldn't have had a better day.
Lowering the saddle was the ticket, it's a totally new ballgame now, I almost can't believe it. Very stable and I now have realized how to use the secondary chine to my advantage.
I can't wait to get back on another river/creek with my Prelude.
I need redemption on Johnnies!!!!!
Thank you everyone who posted, I learned alot and got some good info on personal setups.
lowered saddle to about 7". cleaned out some more foam around the knees to slide in more.
Paddled S. Sauty Creek yesterday over in Alabama. all solid III and IV and it was awesome!!! I couldn't have had a better day.
Lowering the saddle was the ticket, it's a totally new ballgame now, I almost can't believe it. Very stable and I now have realized how to use the secondary chine to my advantage.
I can't wait to get back on another river/creek with my Prelude.
I need redemption on Johnnies!!!!!
Thank you everyone who posted, I learned alot and got some good info on personal setups.
Prelude outfitting
I have just started another thread regarding prelude outfitting as I am interested to fuind what others think of my setup.
Jon
Jon
small boats
you're in a displacement hull. a planing hull is way more stable feeling.
try a quake for something as stable as a dock. The taureau is totally confidence inspiring (at least for me at 155lbs)
I find the small displacement boats ie: zoom,prelude,phantom to be too sensitive to catching you offguard, I want training wheels when it counts to stay upright.
use the contact me button on bubblestreet.ca if you want to email me direct
see ya
Paul
try a quake for something as stable as a dock. The taureau is totally confidence inspiring (at least for me at 155lbs)
I find the small displacement boats ie: zoom,prelude,phantom to be too sensitive to catching you offguard, I want training wheels when it counts to stay upright.
use the contact me button on bubblestreet.ca if you want to email me direct
see ya
Paul
small boats
you're in a displacement hull. a planing hull is way more stable feeling.
try a quake for something as stable as a dock. The taureau is totally confidence inspiring (at least for me at 155lbs)
I find the small displacement boats ie: zoom,prelude,phantom to be too sensitive to catching you offguard, I want training wheels when it counts to stay upright.
use the contact me button on bubblestreet.ca if you want to email me direct
see ya
Paul
try a quake for something as stable as a dock. The taureau is totally confidence inspiring (at least for me at 155lbs)
I find the small displacement boats ie: zoom,prelude,phantom to be too sensitive to catching you offguard, I want training wheels when it counts to stay upright.
use the contact me button on bubblestreet.ca if you want to email me direct
see ya
Paul