Hi everyone,
I know that many people might have read an earlier post on here and know my opinion on this, but I wanted to check this board and see if there were any other people who wanted to voice opinions.
I know that there are some racers and such on this board who might have had experience with USACK (USA Canoe and Kayak), the supposed governing organization for the competitive side of the sport. Does anyone here have any thoughts about USACK -- are they good for the sport, or bad? Do people feel good or bad about paying their $55 to USACK each year? Just looking for some feedback from people who are members.
Thanks,
Alden
USACK -- What do people think of them?
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Crickets....
You know if I did not have to send them $100+ every year for a family membership I really would not know what they do for me, except redistribute money. The insurance for race organizers is about the only benefit I perceive. They do ask for more money from me to send the Coaches overseas; however, not much goes to the athletes. The national ranking system is gone.... that was pretty nice and really helped incentivise racers. The website sucks... http://www.usack.org ... and is rarely kept up to date. The Cadet National Team recognition is gone. The Judges are all certified for life and no longer accept new comers so they are off limits.
On the plus side they do fund the JOs, Olympic Development training areas and certain Teams. I do take advantage of that. It ain't much but who can complain about money that falls from the sky.
They do support the US Team Coaches; however, the average athlete does not get much from that unless they are on the US Team. Please note that Sylvan and Cathy are very giving of their time, what little is left after the US Team. The US Team earns that kind of support so I do not have a problem with that. It is the second and third tier coaching and management that is non-existent. I would expect a USACK to have something.....
As a conduit for Money transfer I suppose they are effective. I do not see regular P/L sheets to tell what they take in versus what they spend and the internal costs they have. There are a lot of staff members.
You know if I did not have to send them $100+ every year for a family membership I really would not know what they do for me, except redistribute money. The insurance for race organizers is about the only benefit I perceive. They do ask for more money from me to send the Coaches overseas; however, not much goes to the athletes. The national ranking system is gone.... that was pretty nice and really helped incentivise racers. The website sucks... http://www.usack.org ... and is rarely kept up to date. The Cadet National Team recognition is gone. The Judges are all certified for life and no longer accept new comers so they are off limits.
On the plus side they do fund the JOs, Olympic Development training areas and certain Teams. I do take advantage of that. It ain't much but who can complain about money that falls from the sky.
They do support the US Team Coaches; however, the average athlete does not get much from that unless they are on the US Team. Please note that Sylvan and Cathy are very giving of their time, what little is left after the US Team. The US Team earns that kind of support so I do not have a problem with that. It is the second and third tier coaching and management that is non-existent. I would expect a USACK to have something.....
As a conduit for Money transfer I suppose they are effective. I do not see regular P/L sheets to tell what they take in versus what they spend and the internal costs they have. There are a lot of staff members.
USACK
These are only my opinions, and should be taken as such. I've never really seen any benefit USACK provides, other than insurance for events. While in theory they fund coaches, I doubt more than a handful of "pre-selected" racers ever benefit from that USACK funded coaching. I've certainly never seen any direct USACK efforts to help local/regional juniors who might have an interest in whitewater racing, let alone weekend warriors. When I qualified for my first US team, USACK not only did not provide uniforms, we didn't even get "USA" sticker for our boats. Past US team members paid for these things out of their own pockets so that we would have at least some semblance of team unity. Older racers who mentored me felt strongly that when slalom became an olympic sport, the USACK equivalent at the time took most of the available money for salaries and perks, and left the sport to die. My feeling, right or wrong, is that this continues today. When I look at Charlotte, I think of the Ocoee site. Millions spent. Probably never to be raced on again. Sorry for the rant- it's a slow day at work 
I tell you those stickers are so cheap.... yet they mean so much to the athlete. They are very very important. They are a clear sign of recognition as is national rankings, as is the Cadet Team, as is the recognition of development athletes, in that regard USACK could play a big role; however, they fall way short. There is no excuse for it either as it very cheap to recognize people and efforts.
boatin
Hmm, some interesting points. I'm in the process of learning what it is that USACK actually does for my money (from corresponding with employees). In the past it seemed their theme song was "Take the Money and Run" by Steve Miller. But we shall see.
Alden
Alden
Last edited by Alden on Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Alden,
I gained some very interesting insights into USACK's lack of responsibility, effectiveness and concern for slalom in the week that I spent at ASCI. I will share with you via email when I get some time. This week I'm incredibly busy both at work and home. Gotta make up for time spent away.
Natalie
I gained some very interesting insights into USACK's lack of responsibility, effectiveness and concern for slalom in the week that I spent at ASCI. I will share with you via email when I get some time. This week I'm incredibly busy both at work and home. Gotta make up for time spent away.
Natalie
newbie perspective
I joined USACK in June (while registering for the US Cup races in Colorado). I began racing in March, and so I haven’t had much interaction with the slalom community / USACK in general. But perhaps the perspective of a newbie is valuable.
Online registration was easy, and I got my member number instantly. I was hoping for some sort of “welcome to USACK!” letter (a sticker, perhaps?) in the mail, but after 6 weeks I have seen nothing. I did get my official nomination form for next year’s board, though. I was more than happy to pay my $55 – for me, it made my slalom obsession a little more real. I was proud to become a member. And I haven’t yet had a chance to see how that money is used.
I come to slalom from swimming – the other water-related S-word that defined most of my life. Swimming is a huge sport – at close to 240,000 members at $42 per year, their national governing body (http://www.usaswimming.org/) has plenty of cash to work with. They have camps, clinics, coaches, podcasts, a publication, and great support for the 35 athletes on the national team, not to mention support for the national “B” team and other developing swimmers.
Okay, so they are huge and have more money. A whole different ballgame. And I didn't expect all those resources from USACK -- but, honesty, I was surprised to find so little structure in place nationally. The best thing USAswim does is just info management & logistics. The website is organized and easy to use. Info on races & events, qualifying info, local clubs & resources, and timely event results are all there and up to date. The set standards for events -- as well as provide guidance & support to make sure events run smoothly. The organization really makes you feel like you are a part of a larger swimming community – you know when races are going to happen, you can track the progress of national level swimmers. You don’t need to be good friends with an athlete to actually be a fan of the sport.
What USACK could provide is more national communication about slalom (I don’t know the situation w/ other USACK disciplines). As someone new, I have had to dig and dig and dig for information on matters as simple as the dates and location of major races. I now know much more about how our sport works, but all of that has come through informal message boards and personal contact at races.
There are wonderful volunteers and great people driving this sport on a local level. We need to support them, capitalize on their passion. If you swing it right, sharing information and providing structure does not take a lot of funding and it can have a huge impact. I’m sure there are also great, passionate people running USACK – I don’t know what their jobs are, or what obstacles they face. So I don’t want to render any judgment – just share my experience.
Online registration was easy, and I got my member number instantly. I was hoping for some sort of “welcome to USACK!” letter (a sticker, perhaps?) in the mail, but after 6 weeks I have seen nothing. I did get my official nomination form for next year’s board, though. I was more than happy to pay my $55 – for me, it made my slalom obsession a little more real. I was proud to become a member. And I haven’t yet had a chance to see how that money is used.
I come to slalom from swimming – the other water-related S-word that defined most of my life. Swimming is a huge sport – at close to 240,000 members at $42 per year, their national governing body (http://www.usaswimming.org/) has plenty of cash to work with. They have camps, clinics, coaches, podcasts, a publication, and great support for the 35 athletes on the national team, not to mention support for the national “B” team and other developing swimmers.
Okay, so they are huge and have more money. A whole different ballgame. And I didn't expect all those resources from USACK -- but, honesty, I was surprised to find so little structure in place nationally. The best thing USAswim does is just info management & logistics. The website is organized and easy to use. Info on races & events, qualifying info, local clubs & resources, and timely event results are all there and up to date. The set standards for events -- as well as provide guidance & support to make sure events run smoothly. The organization really makes you feel like you are a part of a larger swimming community – you know when races are going to happen, you can track the progress of national level swimmers. You don’t need to be good friends with an athlete to actually be a fan of the sport.
What USACK could provide is more national communication about slalom (I don’t know the situation w/ other USACK disciplines). As someone new, I have had to dig and dig and dig for information on matters as simple as the dates and location of major races. I now know much more about how our sport works, but all of that has come through informal message boards and personal contact at races.
There are wonderful volunteers and great people driving this sport on a local level. We need to support them, capitalize on their passion. If you swing it right, sharing information and providing structure does not take a lot of funding and it can have a huge impact. I’m sure there are also great, passionate people running USACK – I don’t know what their jobs are, or what obstacles they face. So I don’t want to render any judgment – just share my experience.
boatin
c1w,
Very interesting. I agree with many of the things you said. Speaking of links, not sure if you've seen this one, but it's what USACK's should be more like (it's the standard)
www.daveyhearn.com
Alden
Very interesting. I agree with many of the things you said. Speaking of links, not sure if you've seen this one, but it's what USACK's should be more like (it's the standard)
www.daveyhearn.com
Alden
Being Dutch I have no experience with USACK but most of the comments here apply to the Dutch National Canoe/Kayak Union (NKB) as well, unfortunately.
Somehow the Brits (BCU), French (FFCK) and Germans (DKV) seem to do a lot better. The funny thing is, in those countries paddling is regarded as a real sport. Whereas it is not in Holland (except by the athletes involved of course).
Perhaps the national unions that are not doing so well could have a good look at the well organized ones abroad and see if they can borrow some ideas to increase quality. I know commercial companies do, so why should a sports union not do the same thing?
Just my two cents,
Michiel
PS I have done my share of work for the Dutch Union but after 7 years of spending more time on organizing than paddling I figured I wanted to go out and paddle too
Somehow the Brits (BCU), French (FFCK) and Germans (DKV) seem to do a lot better. The funny thing is, in those countries paddling is regarded as a real sport. Whereas it is not in Holland (except by the athletes involved of course).
Perhaps the national unions that are not doing so well could have a good look at the well organized ones abroad and see if they can borrow some ideas to increase quality. I know commercial companies do, so why should a sports union not do the same thing?
Just my two cents,
Michiel
PS I have done my share of work for the Dutch Union but after 7 years of spending more time on organizing than paddling I figured I wanted to go out and paddle too
Great points Michielv and C1W. I like the paralellel with Competitive Swimming.
The point is made real simple by comparing this:
http://www.slalomtechnique.co.uk/
To this:
http://www.usack.org
What a difference....
The point is made real simple by comparing this:
http://www.slalomtechnique.co.uk/
To this:
http://www.usack.org
What a difference....
USACK
All good points. For another frame of reference, how the French do it:
http://www.ffck.org/eau_vive/index.html
Nothing too fancy, but all of the relevant information for each discipline...edg
http://www.ffck.org/eau_vive/index.html
Nothing too fancy, but all of the relevant information for each discipline...edg
the french link is interesting & fun to dig through... I wish I could read French.
Davey's site is great and definitely fills a void. But lack of national structure is still evident... for example, there were 4 "US Cup" races this year that aren't identified on there. I was at the third & fourth (Colorado) -- I know the second was at Wausau -- but no one seems to know when the first was.
What is a US Cup race anyway? Who decides which events get to be a “US Cup” race? No one was able to tell me this summer. It seems like this could be a fantastic, completive series for developing athletes. But not if someone can’t even find out where and what they are.
Michiel, good point. Which other organizations are effective, and how are they doing it? Good questions to ask.
Again, I have no historical perspective on this.
~ Laura
Davey's site is great and definitely fills a void. But lack of national structure is still evident... for example, there were 4 "US Cup" races this year that aren't identified on there. I was at the third & fourth (Colorado) -- I know the second was at Wausau -- but no one seems to know when the first was.
What is a US Cup race anyway? Who decides which events get to be a “US Cup” race? No one was able to tell me this summer. It seems like this could be a fantastic, completive series for developing athletes. But not if someone can’t even find out where and what they are.
Michiel, good point. Which other organizations are effective, and how are they doing it? Good questions to ask.
Again, I have no historical perspective on this.
~ Laura
Last edited by c1w on Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
just pulled up and read the “purpose” of USACK as listed on pages 1 & 2 of their bylaws here: http://www.usack.org/CMFiles/Docs/Bylaws.pdf
It’s good stuff. Promote & grow the sport, etc.
The empty links on the USACK site drive me crazy (Athlete News / Updates, Coach Education, Coach Clinics, Coach Bios, Officials, etc.). Either post something or pull the link. There are blank spots for the agenda and minutes of the last two USACK meetings, but nothing is there. But they do have all the rules posted – very important resources. They also have extensive contact info up for the board members. That's great to see as well.
~ Laura
http://lauraegerdal.blogspot.com
It’s good stuff. Promote & grow the sport, etc.
The empty links on the USACK site drive me crazy (Athlete News / Updates, Coach Education, Coach Clinics, Coach Bios, Officials, etc.). Either post something or pull the link. There are blank spots for the agenda and minutes of the last two USACK meetings, but nothing is there. But they do have all the rules posted – very important resources. They also have extensive contact info up for the board members. That's great to see as well.
~ Laura
http://lauraegerdal.blogspot.com
Frankly I have had little to do with USACK, as I haven't actively raced since '96 - But I have seen very little back from them in that time.
At least the old system through NSWC/ACA had an active role in developing younger paddlers and the above mentioned ranking system was also a positive thing. I can remember the days of trying to find the "little " races so that I could make a B ranking
I think there was a pretty good start with the Centers of Excellence, but I think those really focus on the more elite athletes rather than the youngsters who are our future.
my $.03
At least the old system through NSWC/ACA had an active role in developing younger paddlers and the above mentioned ranking system was also a positive thing. I can remember the days of trying to find the "little " races so that I could make a B ranking
I think there was a pretty good start with the Centers of Excellence, but I think those really focus on the more elite athletes rather than the youngsters who are our future.
my $.03
I've been to Europe and can tell you that Whitewater slalom has vastly more support than in the states , Especially in Slovakia and Germany. More support and more money means better training and more revenue for the governing bodies. I imagine the USACK is doing the best they can with what they have to work with.