I'm going to design a squirt C-1 this winter and I was wanting to make a real sinker- just for fun. But- I was wondering... looking for people's opinions on it they would prefer a cruise friendly unit- or a destination mystery machine with better roaming ability.
It's gonna be way low in any case- I'm going to build something where you disappear for long periods of time.
u reddy 4 dat?
jim
just wondering.....
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
Cquirt....
Jim - so nice of you to drop in and B1C1.
Speaking for myself ……I'd personally like a cquirt DT unit with some inherant curisabitily.
First because my skills sets lack (based on the Maven enlightenment) and second I have limited time for pure park and drop.
I also question, based on time availability (kids, work, older age), if I will ever be able to redial in the roaming zen. Not saying I will / can not…. but thinking back that phase requires focus so as to overcome what lies within.
Great to hear you're think'n C-1 and look'nforward to updates…. Oh and yes…red'y and will'n!
Paul C.
Speaking for myself ……I'd personally like a cquirt DT unit with some inherant curisabitily.
First because my skills sets lack (based on the Maven enlightenment) and second I have limited time for pure park and drop.
I also question, based on time availability (kids, work, older age), if I will ever be able to redial in the roaming zen. Not saying I will / can not…. but thinking back that phase requires focus so as to overcome what lies within.
Great to hear you're think'n C-1 and look'nforward to updates…. Oh and yes…red'y and will'n!
Paul C.
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CosmikDebris
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I've been waiting for this!
My personal opinion which counts for basically nothing, is there are already some good cruisin' C1 squirts out there (acrobat, aerobat, maybe the viper, etc...) In fact, I'd argue that all C1's designed to date have been cruisers rather than depth hounds. I have been wanting to design a boat ever since I went to Paul's shop and saw one of your KOR's last summer. What I was thinking is have a boat with very little rocker, with volume taken out of the deck and hull (a la KOR/Ninja), but retain the round wingy edges. This would be essentially like two sterns jammed together. However, I was thinking on the hull, you could incorporate some sort of leg tunnels which may even drop down a little which would extend that wing sidewall, and you could even take some volume out, or a lot of volume out between them and incorporate a semi-built in saddle. My main idea here, and it may be impractical, is if you dropped the leg tunnels down a half inch or so, it would lower the riders center of gravity and make stablility easier to find down at the bottom of the river. Of course, you'd be giving up most/all cruise ablility and it would be an awkward shape to paddle, but it would (hopefully) sink. Also, I think carrying the width out a little further to the ends would help in some stablility as well, and with the average leverage of being on your knees and using a canoe stick you could overcome any difficulties initiating the boat. I have been wanting to experiment with this design all fall, but I'm leaving for Argentina in a week and won't be back until March, so I guess it'll have to wait. I know Jeremy Laucks was talking about building a C1, maybe we should have a great C1 squirt buildoff, may be best boat sink (in flaming glory!)
My personal opinion which counts for basically nothing, is there are already some good cruisin' C1 squirts out there (acrobat, aerobat, maybe the viper, etc...) In fact, I'd argue that all C1's designed to date have been cruisers rather than depth hounds. I have been wanting to design a boat ever since I went to Paul's shop and saw one of your KOR's last summer. What I was thinking is have a boat with very little rocker, with volume taken out of the deck and hull (a la KOR/Ninja), but retain the round wingy edges. This would be essentially like two sterns jammed together. However, I was thinking on the hull, you could incorporate some sort of leg tunnels which may even drop down a little which would extend that wing sidewall, and you could even take some volume out, or a lot of volume out between them and incorporate a semi-built in saddle. My main idea here, and it may be impractical, is if you dropped the leg tunnels down a half inch or so, it would lower the riders center of gravity and make stablility easier to find down at the bottom of the river. Of course, you'd be giving up most/all cruise ablility and it would be an awkward shape to paddle, but it would (hopefully) sink. Also, I think carrying the width out a little further to the ends would help in some stablility as well, and with the average leverage of being on your knees and using a canoe stick you could overcome any difficulties initiating the boat. I have been wanting to experiment with this design all fall, but I'm leaving for Argentina in a week and won't be back until March, so I guess it'll have to wait. I know Jeremy Laucks was talking about building a C1, maybe we should have a great C1 squirt buildoff, may be best boat sink (in flaming glory!)
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CosmikDebris
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CosmikDebris
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Oh yeah, Paul
Once you get a taste of the sweetness that comes with being totally underwater and in control, you'll probably drop everything else (no pun intended) and do nothing but cruise around looking at convergences and eddylines. If a C1 that can sink controllably is developed, it will undoubtedly change the world!
will lyons
Once you get a taste of the sweetness that comes with being totally underwater and in control, you'll probably drop everything else (no pun intended) and do nothing but cruise around looking at convergences and eddylines. If a C1 that can sink controllably is developed, it will undoubtedly change the world!
will lyons
JIMS
hey jimi. I built that wood strip c-1 squirt. If you do a search you can pull up pics of it. Next time i'm out your way i'll bring it buy. And um . she definitely drops. hahahhaha. JIM oh yeah thANKS FOR YOUR TIME ON THE DUREING THE BUILD
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Mike W.
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I wanna sink 
But I've got to be able to run low class 2 water to get to my spot. I've gotten chest deep in both a Maven & my master cut Acrobat. PLEASE give us more width than the Maven, both for stability & physical comfort. The wider we can get our knees, the better. The Sith, although not a squirt, is pretty much the holy grail of c-boat comfort due in large part to the abilty to spread your knees out.
The Maven sinks, but is very difficult to paddle & I can't make it cartwheel, don't know why. It looks like it should throw ends effortlessly, but it stalls out. The Acrobat is a much more stable platform, even in the master cut version. It will cartwheel, but is more difficult to get down (I'm guessing part of this is the higher volume). Also the small cockpit openning squeezes your legs together & limits my time in the boat.
I'm sure that Adam has sent you photos of the Mentor by now. That looks like a neat boat & I can't wait to try it.
I found the pics of Jim's stripper. Scroll about half-way down the page. This looks like a real fun boat too. I really like the keep cockpit, gives you something to put hip pads on & keep 'em under the skirt. Looks like you should be able to foam out the knee/thigh area, glass in anchors for a lap-belt & go. http://cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0
I have the demo Maven, a master cut Acrobat & a Sith. If you want to paddle them, there is an outside chance that I could make a quick run up to WV one weekend. Let me know if you're interested.
But I've got to be able to run low class 2 water to get to my spot. I've gotten chest deep in both a Maven & my master cut Acrobat. PLEASE give us more width than the Maven, both for stability & physical comfort. The wider we can get our knees, the better. The Sith, although not a squirt, is pretty much the holy grail of c-boat comfort due in large part to the abilty to spread your knees out.The Maven sinks, but is very difficult to paddle & I can't make it cartwheel, don't know why. It looks like it should throw ends effortlessly, but it stalls out. The Acrobat is a much more stable platform, even in the master cut version. It will cartwheel, but is more difficult to get down (I'm guessing part of this is the higher volume). Also the small cockpit openning squeezes your legs together & limits my time in the boat.
I'm sure that Adam has sent you photos of the Mentor by now. That looks like a neat boat & I can't wait to try it.
I found the pics of Jim's stripper. Scroll about half-way down the page. This looks like a real fun boat too. I really like the keep cockpit, gives you something to put hip pads on & keep 'em under the skirt. Looks like you should be able to foam out the knee/thigh area, glass in anchors for a lap-belt & go. http://cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0
I have the demo Maven, a master cut Acrobat & a Sith. If you want to paddle them, there is an outside chance that I could make a quick run up to WV one weekend. Let me know if you're interested.
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Sir Adam
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Mentor...
I hope to post images of a finished Mentor in a few weeks...inside seams are done, as is the cockpit rim...if I can get the garage back up to temperature this weekend I'll try the outside seams...until then only a select two have seen them....
But, to answer your question, definitely a destination park and sink roaming machine.
The Mentor to me is the "angst" of the C-world - I have high hopes for it being a boat that FINALLY has low enough volume so we can sink and not keep chasing our chops.... It is also wide and stable, and fairly comfortable if I do say so myself!
There are indeed plenty of cruising squirts out there - the Acrobat is a great boat, it just doesn't really sink unless you are of more substance and have a really small chop. There's just too much volume in them thar decks (a problem I've taken care of in the Mentor rather nicely...but I do worry about cockpit volume...we'll see how that all shakes out soon).
Glad to C you're considering bringing your vast knowledge and talents to our little realm:)
Adam
But, to answer your question, definitely a destination park and sink roaming machine.
The Mentor to me is the "angst" of the C-world - I have high hopes for it being a boat that FINALLY has low enough volume so we can sink and not keep chasing our chops.... It is also wide and stable, and fairly comfortable if I do say so myself!
There are indeed plenty of cruising squirts out there - the Acrobat is a great boat, it just doesn't really sink unless you are of more substance and have a really small chop. There's just too much volume in them thar decks (a problem I've taken care of in the Mentor rather nicely...but I do worry about cockpit volume...we'll see how that all shakes out soon).
Glad to C you're considering bringing your vast knowledge and talents to our little realm:)
Adam
reddy and willin'
I'd vote for the sinkr' myself.
As a not-so-random train of thought... I wonder how much water you could cup in the decks before you loose your wing?
huge
As a not-so-random train of thought... I wonder how much water you could cup in the decks before you loose your wing?
huge
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Sir Adam
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we'l find out...
Huge...we'll be finding out shortly methinks 
I just wish the water wasn't so hard around here this time of year.
Personally I've been thinking about another more fluid design for a destination boat, that has the same feature I think that Will is alluding to - that being the hull raising up under where the paddler will sit...partial built-in seat, while reducing volume further. That's really the downside I see to the Mentor still...the remaining volume is right around the paddler (a la Oxygen, but with a lower rim) In cut down boats the only place you can still get volume OUT will be under the paddler, and between your knees....
More to come when it's seamed and in the water, I hope....
I just wish the water wasn't so hard around here this time of year.
Personally I've been thinking about another more fluid design for a destination boat, that has the same feature I think that Will is alluding to - that being the hull raising up under where the paddler will sit...partial built-in seat, while reducing volume further. That's really the downside I see to the Mentor still...the remaining volume is right around the paddler (a la Oxygen, but with a lower rim) In cut down boats the only place you can still get volume OUT will be under the paddler, and between your knees....
More to come when it's seamed and in the water, I hope....
Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
OK
Thanks for the input. My heart was really in doing a ground breaking dropper. One thing I wanted to bring to the design is true stability. Would anyone like to contribute input as to
1. a good stable boat width
2. a nice knee width (center of knee to center of knee)
3. a way comfy seat height
This thing is gonna be pretty different. Be ready for something different.
jim
ps as for the wells "holding water"- it's not really that way underwater. It is a funny wing. One of the main contributions to the bumpy decks is that they bring strength (corrugations) to a weak boat configuration- and they make seaming easier.
1. a good stable boat width
2. a nice knee width (center of knee to center of knee)
3. a way comfy seat height
This thing is gonna be pretty different. Be ready for something different.
jim
ps as for the wells "holding water"- it's not really that way underwater. It is a funny wing. One of the main contributions to the bumpy decks is that they bring strength (corrugations) to a weak boat configuration- and they make seaming easier.
Jim
I think the stablity and and knee spread are inclusive. Seat comfort is paddler dependent (some like 5" and others 9" high) some slope, others add butt blocks, ankle blocks, suicide blocks, staps, lap belts, hip pads and the like. So that is sort of a mix and match to the boater.
It the cockpit can be centered out to provide boater customization (and to deal with boater shapes and sizes) that would be most excellent.
Having a standardized cockpit size for the skirt (re-usability) would also be greatly appreciated.
On some designs C1ers don't feel the pressures on our legs in DT mode (centered and kneeling) so internal structure for strenght can be approached from a different angles (Adam kick about a number of thoughts there - ribs, honey comb, boxes, pillars, etc.). You know wing better than any of us so we leave that to you.
As for cruisability - the only reason I as ask for some is that, like Mike and others, I like to paddle about and I don't see me just park'n & drop (due more to time than anything). If I can run some II's in a boat all the better since I can find more play time.
Having a single blade adds some stability challenges but does provide tork so we'll leave it to your designness to assist us weaklings in setting angle to get down.
Will
I hear you on the oneness! I've been there and want to revisit the love. Just that work and family keep getting in the way of time requried to get out and dial in. I think you really need to show up at the Cquirt and try out the Maven and hopefully Adam's newbie the Mentor. Definetly shifts in the paradiam! Not to mention this project of Jim's. In the mean time go play and post so we can be jealous
- life is defintely not a dress rehersal! Again try to make the Cquirt - we'd love to C you and usually stop at Paul's shops as well. It is way cool to have a number of boat designers / builders / users (Adam, Shaggy boys,etc.) at one spot talking shop … then go play! Jim was kind enough to meet up with us last year as well and show us a little jewl by his house. I'm hoping we can do that again (hint)!
Mr. Gross just an FYI - I posted some of your photos over on the angst site for enjoyment of all…thought you knew already. Sorry Jim.. My bad...bye-the-way folks liked it! I / we will be looking for it at the next Cquirt to try it out so be ready to spend some time out of it!
Paul C.
I think the stablity and and knee spread are inclusive. Seat comfort is paddler dependent (some like 5" and others 9" high) some slope, others add butt blocks, ankle blocks, suicide blocks, staps, lap belts, hip pads and the like. So that is sort of a mix and match to the boater.
It the cockpit can be centered out to provide boater customization (and to deal with boater shapes and sizes) that would be most excellent.
Having a standardized cockpit size for the skirt (re-usability) would also be greatly appreciated.
On some designs C1ers don't feel the pressures on our legs in DT mode (centered and kneeling) so internal structure for strenght can be approached from a different angles (Adam kick about a number of thoughts there - ribs, honey comb, boxes, pillars, etc.). You know wing better than any of us so we leave that to you.
As for cruisability - the only reason I as ask for some is that, like Mike and others, I like to paddle about and I don't see me just park'n & drop (due more to time than anything). If I can run some II's in a boat all the better since I can find more play time.
Having a single blade adds some stability challenges but does provide tork so we'll leave it to your designness to assist us weaklings in setting angle to get down.
Will
I hear you on the oneness! I've been there and want to revisit the love. Just that work and family keep getting in the way of time requried to get out and dial in. I think you really need to show up at the Cquirt and try out the Maven and hopefully Adam's newbie the Mentor. Definetly shifts in the paradiam! Not to mention this project of Jim's. In the mean time go play and post so we can be jealous
- life is defintely not a dress rehersal! Again try to make the Cquirt - we'd love to C you and usually stop at Paul's shops as well. It is way cool to have a number of boat designers / builders / users (Adam, Shaggy boys,etc.) at one spot talking shop … then go play! Jim was kind enough to meet up with us last year as well and show us a little jewl by his house. I'm hoping we can do that again (hint)!Mr. Gross just an FYI - I posted some of your photos over on the angst site for enjoyment of all…thought you knew already. Sorry Jim.. My bad...bye-the-way folks liked it! I / we will be looking for it at the next Cquirt to try it out so be ready to spend some time out of it!
Paul C.
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Sir Adam
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in answer to your latest queries...
1) As PAC stated, they are really related. I would aim for a 26" wide boat, or slightly wider if you're going for a really rounded sides around the paddler. This will allow most folks go get their legs further apart, which makes the boat MUCH more comfortable, as well as adding to stability or feeling of stability, and allowing for MUCH lower seats. I went a bit overboard (as I am wont to due...) and the Mentor is just shy of 28" (as is the Acrobat, by the way). I am fairly sure if I stretched just a tiny bit, or was in "summer paddling flexibility" that I'd be able to use a 3" seat. Yes. I wrote it. 3 inches!!! That is due to my cockpit rim design along with the width, as you'll see shortly (within a week, though the boat may not be fully beautified by then).
Realistically if you go for a 5 or 6" seat, along with allowing for a wide knee stance, folks will be OK.
To understand the dynamics of what works and what doesn't, I HIGHLY recommend hopping in to an older design (I'm sure PAC has several
) such as the Acrobat, and then try and track down a Sith to sit in and paddle. I CAN NOT SAY ENOUGH GOOD THINGS about the design of the Sith - the body position to me is revolutionary in that it allows a lower saddle to be very, very comfortable. With what little I understand of said position I've tried to work it in to the Mentor...I doubt it will be AS comfortable as a Sith, but it is VASTLY more comfortable than other designs, at least from my limited time sitting it in it my garage (I find I cramp up faster on dry land, so it can be a good test).
I would also recommend a little rocker to keep it user friendly. With our upper bodies sticking out of our craft so much farther we have a lot more leverage...and a more forgiving craft is going to keep things more accessible for us mortals. Two examples of boats without enough user friendliness would be the Oxygen (NO real rocker in either direction), and the Maven (too narrow for the vast majority of folks...though a few of us lighter folks like it). If anything the Maven has TOO MUCH rocker I believe, and that, when coupled with the "monitor" style deck makes it difficult to cartwheel.
If you would like images of any of the boats mentioned above please let me know - I know PS has the molds to most of them, but not all.
Oh - another boat that I have never seen in person (but would really like one) is the Meltdown. I've heard GREAT things about it's mysteryability.
So, the short answer to your questions:
-26-28" wide, 6" seat height.
I'll elaborate on my last answer more, too...I'd like a boat that is meant for mysteries, BUT can be paddled down the river. I'm not interested in a cruising boat that squirts (Acrobat fits that category very, very well), nor a surfing / squirting boat (hopefully the Mentor...).
Adam
1) As PAC stated, they are really related. I would aim for a 26" wide boat, or slightly wider if you're going for a really rounded sides around the paddler. This will allow most folks go get their legs further apart, which makes the boat MUCH more comfortable, as well as adding to stability or feeling of stability, and allowing for MUCH lower seats. I went a bit overboard (as I am wont to due...) and the Mentor is just shy of 28" (as is the Acrobat, by the way). I am fairly sure if I stretched just a tiny bit, or was in "summer paddling flexibility" that I'd be able to use a 3" seat. Yes. I wrote it. 3 inches!!! That is due to my cockpit rim design along with the width, as you'll see shortly (within a week, though the boat may not be fully beautified by then).
Realistically if you go for a 5 or 6" seat, along with allowing for a wide knee stance, folks will be OK.
To understand the dynamics of what works and what doesn't, I HIGHLY recommend hopping in to an older design (I'm sure PAC has several
) such as the Acrobat, and then try and track down a Sith to sit in and paddle. I CAN NOT SAY ENOUGH GOOD THINGS about the design of the Sith - the body position to me is revolutionary in that it allows a lower saddle to be very, very comfortable. With what little I understand of said position I've tried to work it in to the Mentor...I doubt it will be AS comfortable as a Sith, but it is VASTLY more comfortable than other designs, at least from my limited time sitting it in it my garage (I find I cramp up faster on dry land, so it can be a good test).I would also recommend a little rocker to keep it user friendly. With our upper bodies sticking out of our craft so much farther we have a lot more leverage...and a more forgiving craft is going to keep things more accessible for us mortals. Two examples of boats without enough user friendliness would be the Oxygen (NO real rocker in either direction), and the Maven (too narrow for the vast majority of folks...though a few of us lighter folks like it). If anything the Maven has TOO MUCH rocker I believe, and that, when coupled with the "monitor" style deck makes it difficult to cartwheel.
If you would like images of any of the boats mentioned above please let me know - I know PS has the molds to most of them, but not all.
Oh - another boat that I have never seen in person (but would really like one) is the Meltdown. I've heard GREAT things about it's mysteryability.
So, the short answer to your questions:
-26-28" wide, 6" seat height.
I'll elaborate on my last answer more, too...I'd like a boat that is meant for mysteries, BUT can be paddled down the river. I'm not interested in a cruising boat that squirts (Acrobat fits that category very, very well), nor a surfing / squirting boat (hopefully the Mentor...).
Adam