They MADE our world...
Talk about Hair boaters...few months without shaving and hair cuts...and all these furs 
But seriously, how courageous our OC ancesters ! They really had everything on the line when running rapids.
WW Boats that changed the World
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
No I wasn't in a C1, it was a OC1....Sir Adam wrote:The Sweet-Hahn is a decked boat - a Hahn tweaked by John Sweet. There is also a Morrison-Hahn.
The HD-1 is the boat made from a Hahn hull, as I recall.
and the boat was made from a Hahn C1 bottom. And it was done by Mr John Sweet. So I've alway's heard it called a Hahns-Sweet.
Not to be so rash...
... as to say Mr Sweet didn't also modify a C1 from the original Hahn.
It was from seeing this original modification, that Perception realized the HD-1. Which was also another OC1 that I owned, abused, destroyed, and enjoyed.
Who did the Rattler???
.... Psyco got one after a nationals, and abused it in a manner most people are incapable doing. It was amazing that it floated for races years later. That boat had a lot to do with Frankie's later thinking...all the Dixie Division Guys took turns in it...
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Sir Adam
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Phil, John Sweet may very well have made an OC1 out of the Hahn.
But it wasn't called a "Sweet Hahn"...I've talked to him about this, and you'll see his initials in many, many boat entries under the boat database. Angus Morrison did the "Morrison Hahn" (difference is primarily in the decks, by the way).
The HD-1 (Hahn Design 1) was off the Hahn hull. I'm not clear who "created" it.
Also realize that there is more than one length Hahn out there, due to the race regulation change. <An edit here, as JRS has kindly pointed out - when I wrote "length" I meant "width", as it was the width regulations that had changed>
For C2's let's not forget the Imperial Cruiser, or for that matter the Duet!
But it wasn't called a "Sweet Hahn"...I've talked to him about this, and you'll see his initials in many, many boat entries under the boat database. Angus Morrison did the "Morrison Hahn" (difference is primarily in the decks, by the way).
The HD-1 (Hahn Design 1) was off the Hahn hull. I'm not clear who "created" it.
Also realize that there is more than one length Hahn out there, due to the race regulation change. <An edit here, as JRS has kindly pointed out - when I wrote "length" I meant "width", as it was the width regulations that had changed>
For C2's let's not forget the Imperial Cruiser, or for that matter the Duet!
Last edited by Sir Adam on Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
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Jim Michaud
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There's also a big difference between the hulls of the Sweet Hahn and the Morrison Hahn. I've owned both and I still have a mold for the Morrison Hahn. The Sweet Hahn is symmetrical and is fuller in the ends. The Morrison Hahn is asymmetrical, being skinnier in the bow and wider in back of the cockpit. This makes the Morrison Hahn a faster boat but harder to turn. The deck height of the Morrison Hahn is around 11 inches while the deck height of the Sweet Hahn is around 13 inches which gives more room for big feet.But it wasn't called a "Sweet Hahn"...I've talked to him about this, and you'll see his initials in many, many boat entries under the boat database. Angus Morrison did the "Morrison Hahn" (difference is primarily in the decks, by the way).
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John Coraor
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John Sweet was still paddling his Hahn hull derived OC-1 in open boat Nationals and perhaps elsewhere when I first started paddling with him as a Grad student at Penn State. However, he no longer paddled the Sweet Hahn C-1 that he had created from a pirated Hahn from Europe. In C-1 he had switched to a cut-down Slipper with a rather unique beavertail stern that he was experimenting with (used only briefly before moving on to an Ultramax).
I don't know what John called his Hahn-derived OC-1, if he ever had a name for it, but Adam and Jim are correct in pointing out that the Sweet Hahn is a very specific model C-1. I paddled one early on at Penn State before moving on to an Ultramax.
John
I don't know what John called his Hahn-derived OC-1, if he ever had a name for it, but Adam and Jim are correct in pointing out that the Sweet Hahn is a very specific model C-1. I paddled one early on at Penn State before moving on to an Ultramax.
John
Clearing up a couple of things
I have read through the entire thread on boats that changed the world. I will nominate another one and, hopefully, have the final word on a couple of things.
1. The original 73 cm wide, 4 m long Hahn slalom C-1 was NOT pirated. I built the first mold with specific permission of Paul Hahn, designer. The boat was bought in Europe and imported to the US. Anne Shuster and I drove from State College to Boston to pick it up in early 1971, whereupon I molded it and made a boat for my own use in February 1971. There were at least 98 boats made from this mold.
2. I modified Paul Hahn's design in the fall of 1972, which was the Sweet Hahn, a decked C-1 of the same length and width as the original. I added rocker, especially in the stern, and modified the molded-in rings in the deck, which were a serious pain to lay up with woven fabric. (Most European boats were laid up with mat, which is much more conformable.) I also flattened the ends of the deck per the new rules adopted for 1973, which removed the requirement that the ends of canoes be higher than the center. This was a crucial rule change that eventually led to low-volume slalom canoes, but this was a slow, evolutionary change. There were at least 47 boats built from the Sweet Hahn mold before I sold it.
3. Jim Michaud's comparison of the Sweet Hahn and Morrison Hahn is essentially correct. I had forgotten that the Morrison was asymmetrical in plan view but I believe that is true. The Sweet Hahn is symmetrical in plan but asymmetrical in longitudinal profile due to the changes in rocker mentioned above.
4, As far as I know there were no length variations in the Hahn series. The original Hahn that I molded was a result of the ICF change from 80 cm to 70 cm width in 1971. The Sweet Hahn was a result of dropping the end-height rule in 1973. There were no other boat-design rule changes during the Hahn era.
5. In the summer of 1975 I built an OC-1 from the original Hahn hull. I called it the Open Hahn. It is definitely NOT the Sweet Hahn. Essentially I laminated a ring mold that bolted to the hull mold just like the original deck mold had. It raised the sides about 6", more toward the ends, and created a slight tumblehome. I added 36" decks at the ends, as allowed by the OC rules, and sealed air chambers underneath. I never used any other flotation. I used this boat at the 1975 Nationals on the Dead River and loaned it to my friend, Don Jarrell, for this race. I won, Steve Fulton was second and Don missed third by one second. There were no other decent slalom boats in that race. There were a lot of short boats but mostly they lacked sufficient freeboard and took on lots of water. Thirteen Open Hahn's were built from my mold before I sold it in 1985.
I believe this a significant design in that it was the inspiration for Perception's HD-1, the ME, and others. I used it for the OC Nationals for several years, including 1978 on the Yough, where I beat Kent Ford III. I have always been proud of that race. I worked with Barb McKee to create an OC-2 from the Hartung hull by much the same method. We used it to win the 1978 OC Nationals and for several years thereafter.
Now, as to a truly revolutionary design, I will nominate the original Natan [or Yugo] C-1. This was designed by Natan Bernot of Yugoslavia in 1961 and molded by David Kurtz and his Post 32 Explorer Scouts in State College, PA. It hit the water in 1962 and changed canoe slalom forever. My older records are not at hand but I believe it placed 1-2-3 at the Brandywine Slalom. In a monumental effort, Bill Bickham won the Nationals on the West River in his Grumman, but that was the end of the Grumman era in slalom. A Grumman was a rare sight on a slalom course after 1962. I should note that there were other early slalom C-1 designs, particularly some in the Traveler series by John Berry, but these were one-off designs. The Natan was the first made from a production mold and widely used.
Sorry to run on for so long. I hope this has been helpful. . . JRS
1. The original 73 cm wide, 4 m long Hahn slalom C-1 was NOT pirated. I built the first mold with specific permission of Paul Hahn, designer. The boat was bought in Europe and imported to the US. Anne Shuster and I drove from State College to Boston to pick it up in early 1971, whereupon I molded it and made a boat for my own use in February 1971. There were at least 98 boats made from this mold.
2. I modified Paul Hahn's design in the fall of 1972, which was the Sweet Hahn, a decked C-1 of the same length and width as the original. I added rocker, especially in the stern, and modified the molded-in rings in the deck, which were a serious pain to lay up with woven fabric. (Most European boats were laid up with mat, which is much more conformable.) I also flattened the ends of the deck per the new rules adopted for 1973, which removed the requirement that the ends of canoes be higher than the center. This was a crucial rule change that eventually led to low-volume slalom canoes, but this was a slow, evolutionary change. There were at least 47 boats built from the Sweet Hahn mold before I sold it.
3. Jim Michaud's comparison of the Sweet Hahn and Morrison Hahn is essentially correct. I had forgotten that the Morrison was asymmetrical in plan view but I believe that is true. The Sweet Hahn is symmetrical in plan but asymmetrical in longitudinal profile due to the changes in rocker mentioned above.
4, As far as I know there were no length variations in the Hahn series. The original Hahn that I molded was a result of the ICF change from 80 cm to 70 cm width in 1971. The Sweet Hahn was a result of dropping the end-height rule in 1973. There were no other boat-design rule changes during the Hahn era.
5. In the summer of 1975 I built an OC-1 from the original Hahn hull. I called it the Open Hahn. It is definitely NOT the Sweet Hahn. Essentially I laminated a ring mold that bolted to the hull mold just like the original deck mold had. It raised the sides about 6", more toward the ends, and created a slight tumblehome. I added 36" decks at the ends, as allowed by the OC rules, and sealed air chambers underneath. I never used any other flotation. I used this boat at the 1975 Nationals on the Dead River and loaned it to my friend, Don Jarrell, for this race. I won, Steve Fulton was second and Don missed third by one second. There were no other decent slalom boats in that race. There were a lot of short boats but mostly they lacked sufficient freeboard and took on lots of water. Thirteen Open Hahn's were built from my mold before I sold it in 1985.
I believe this a significant design in that it was the inspiration for Perception's HD-1, the ME, and others. I used it for the OC Nationals for several years, including 1978 on the Yough, where I beat Kent Ford III. I have always been proud of that race. I worked with Barb McKee to create an OC-2 from the Hartung hull by much the same method. We used it to win the 1978 OC Nationals and for several years thereafter.
Now, as to a truly revolutionary design, I will nominate the original Natan [or Yugo] C-1. This was designed by Natan Bernot of Yugoslavia in 1961 and molded by David Kurtz and his Post 32 Explorer Scouts in State College, PA. It hit the water in 1962 and changed canoe slalom forever. My older records are not at hand but I believe it placed 1-2-3 at the Brandywine Slalom. In a monumental effort, Bill Bickham won the Nationals on the West River in his Grumman, but that was the end of the Grumman era in slalom. A Grumman was a rare sight on a slalom course after 1962. I should note that there were other early slalom C-1 designs, particularly some in the Traveler series by John Berry, but these were one-off designs. The Natan was the first made from a production mold and widely used.
Sorry to run on for so long. I hope this has been helpful. . . JRS
John R. Sweet, Mustoe, VA
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bearboater
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thanks for the tidbit of history on the boats. that's neat to read.
what about the good ole old town tripper, essentially the royalex version of the prospector. not as smooth in the water as the prospector, but dam durable, at least in my arctic experience.
to throw out my 2 cents, i think that the martikan, this years in particular. is also food for thought. it's not like any other C1. it has 2 cm wings, and is super deep, huge rocker, and very little volume in the ends, it's almost more comparable to the 350 kayak from vajda than any other C1 to come out. some other boats are now trying to migrate that wt, but it's not so much the boat as the paddler that has trouble accomodating. I also agree about the hearn/lugbill designs, when they revolutionized pivot turns, and especially bow pivots...
-isaac
what about the good ole old town tripper, essentially the royalex version of the prospector. not as smooth in the water as the prospector, but dam durable, at least in my arctic experience.
to throw out my 2 cents, i think that the martikan, this years in particular. is also food for thought. it's not like any other C1. it has 2 cm wings, and is super deep, huge rocker, and very little volume in the ends, it's almost more comparable to the 350 kayak from vajda than any other C1 to come out. some other boats are now trying to migrate that wt, but it's not so much the boat as the paddler that has trouble accomodating. I also agree about the hearn/lugbill designs, when they revolutionized pivot turns, and especially bow pivots...
-isaac
Last edited by bearboater on Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
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Mike W.
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Re: Clearing up a couple of things
WOW! Thanks for all of the info. Welcome to C-Boats & feel free to run on whenever you likeJRS wrote:Sorry to run on for so long. I hope this has been helpful. . . JRS
A real World changer
Most of the boats that have been discussed in this thread have had a significant impact on whitewater canoeing in the USA but had little impact on the world. For true international impact let's look at the Gemini C-2 designed by Steve Chamberlin.
With a couple of exceptions, all slalom C-2s up through the mid-70s were of the endhole type and the exceptions did not work very well and did not catch on. Then came the Gemini, the first close-cockpit C-2 that really worked.
When the Garvis brothers launched for a practice run on the Lieser River in Austria for the 1977 World Championships, many of the Euros lined the bank, laughing and pointing. That lasted perhaps two minutes. Sadly, the Garvii upset on their second run and finished 4th, missing a medal by 3.4 seconds, losing to two East German teams and a Czech team. They beat two other East Germans, all of the West Germans -- everyone else. No other US C-2 had ever done nearly as well.
By the time the 1979 Worlds opened at Jonquiere, there was not an endhole boat on the water and there has not been one since in any significant event.
That is the boat that changed the World. . . . JRS
With a couple of exceptions, all slalom C-2s up through the mid-70s were of the endhole type and the exceptions did not work very well and did not catch on. Then came the Gemini, the first close-cockpit C-2 that really worked.
When the Garvis brothers launched for a practice run on the Lieser River in Austria for the 1977 World Championships, many of the Euros lined the bank, laughing and pointing. That lasted perhaps two minutes. Sadly, the Garvii upset on their second run and finished 4th, missing a medal by 3.4 seconds, losing to two East German teams and a Czech team. They beat two other East Germans, all of the West Germans -- everyone else. No other US C-2 had ever done nearly as well.
By the time the 1979 Worlds opened at Jonquiere, there was not an endhole boat on the water and there has not been one since in any significant event.
That is the boat that changed the World. . . . JRS
John R. Sweet, Mustoe, VA
Thanks for post the historical info John and the thought as to other boats all! Good reading.
Having paddled a Sweet-Hahn and Gemini I found it very interesting. The S-H I paddled is still around under a friend's deck and I think it still gets out in the water - at least a pool.
My Gemini gets out often and was even raced 2x this last year (with my kids - age 9 and 12) at Bellfonte and Riversport.
http://picasaweb.google.com/paulcline20 ... 9914604706
Okay our style needs some work but it was fun!!!
The Gemini is a monster by todays standards but is super stable and a great boat for taking kids and newbies out for the first time. Pretty quick and classic in its lines - folks know your coming when you head into an eddy and the scratter due to the pointy end and huge size!
My son even told me I am not allowed to sell it - too many good times I guess!
I have to agree!
Paul C.
Having paddled a Sweet-Hahn and Gemini I found it very interesting. The S-H I paddled is still around under a friend's deck and I think it still gets out in the water - at least a pool.
My Gemini gets out often and was even raced 2x this last year (with my kids - age 9 and 12) at Bellfonte and Riversport.
http://picasaweb.google.com/paulcline20 ... 9914604706
Okay our style needs some work but it was fun!!!
The Gemini is a monster by todays standards but is super stable and a great boat for taking kids and newbies out for the first time. Pretty quick and classic in its lines - folks know your coming when you head into an eddy and the scratter due to the pointy end and huge size!
My son even told me I am not allowed to sell it - too many good times I guess!
I have to agree! Paul C.
Paul C.
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In response to Phil's question about the Rattler, that design was by Dave Paton and Mark Clarke and was basically a Cudamax w/ sides. It was in '84 because the Nationals were at the Nantahala. Frankie, 'Possum Pipes, and I got Numbers 3,4, and 5. Dave and Mark had Numbers 1 and 2. They were made by Rainbow Boatworks and may have been the only five made. 'Possum sold his to Psyco after swimming at the Falls. Can't recall what became of Frankie's. I kept mine and like Psyco, cruised it till it weighed about 70 lbs. from patches. I remember I showed up at Sect. IV with mine so Psyco went home and got his because "I can't let you show me up on my home river".
The following year in Vermont, Frankie had the Edge and Mark and Dave were in the Twister (Kaz, correct me if I'm wrong). I was the only Rattler to race two years. I finally donated mine to the guide collection at the Nolichucky and had an Edge for the Nationals the next year.
Speaking of OC's, when I first met Frankie he was cruising a Kevlar Flashback (No. 13) and 'Possum had one of the Sweet OC's before we got Rattlers. My wife Jane wound up w/ ole' No.13 and cruised it for several more years.
The following year in Vermont, Frankie had the Edge and Mark and Dave were in the Twister (Kaz, correct me if I'm wrong). I was the only Rattler to race two years. I finally donated mine to the guide collection at the Nolichucky and had an Edge for the Nationals the next year.
Speaking of OC's, when I first met Frankie he was cruising a Kevlar Flashback (No. 13) and 'Possum had one of the Sweet OC's before we got Rattlers. My wife Jane wound up w/ ole' No.13 and cruised it for several more years.
Rattler
I also had a Rattler in 1984, which I tried to use at the NOC Nationals. It was too easy to spin to suit me. There was a downstream gate in a right eddy below the falls and I simply could not drive the boat across the eddy line without spinning out. I went back to my Zoomer for the race and placed 4th behind Kent Ford, Dave Paton, and Frankie Hubbard. Clean run but too slow.
BTW, who is "Psyco" just out of curiosity. Too bad folks don't use their real names in this forum. JRS
BTW, who is "Psyco" just out of curiosity. Too bad folks don't use their real names in this forum. JRS
John R. Sweet, Mustoe, VA
Psyco
John,
That'd be David "Psyco" Simpson
That'd be David "Psyco" Simpson
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Jim Michaud
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