Avoiding flailing when flipping to offside

[oopsiflipped]

I have a perfect picture to illustrate this somewhere....probably a few.

When I'm paddling on my onside (right) and flip to my left, I end up arcing over with my paddle as i flip, usually to a chorus of laughter from my butt boating buddies.

How do I teach myself to tuck as I flip and keep in tight and safe while continuing the flipping motion into a roll?

On a side note...are there any good C1 instructors in the NW?

Cboats is a great place, but I think I'd benefit so much from a few good lessons. I've never had the chance to paddle with a good C1er out here, much less get actual instruction.

Gabe

[billhay4]

When you flip to the offside, you're much better off being on the offside stroke. If you're flipping from the onside stroke, you're doing something wrong in all likelihood. Not leaning enough, not being on the correct side of the boat, etc.
If you are on the offside stroke, the move is very simple. Do nothing. Allow the paddle to go with the flip and it'll be in the correct position for a roll. All that is needed is a simple move to pull the grip into the gut and a hip snap. It's the easiest roll of all the c-boat rolls.
So, the secret is to get to the offside position.
Hope this helps.
Bill

[oopsiflipped]

Dang Bill! That was fast.

So your saying i should never be flipped to my offside when my paddle is on my onside? I'm either paddling on the wrongside or not leaning to my onside enough?

While we're at it....I did Farmlands instead of the Truss. There are some very narrow spots. How do you roll when your paddle is up against a rock...or under it?

Gabe

[sbroam]

When I flip to my offside I'm usually in an awkward position - like when a righting pry fails, I'm on my offside in a hole, or I'm skittering over shallow stuff with my paddle upstream.

What do I do? I assume the "tuck" position as quickly as possible. T-grip fist to the gut, forehead to the deck, paddle on the deck, throw myself into the flip to get as much momentum going round for the roll. I think it's like when a skater spins - pull your mass in close to the axis of spin and you spin faster.

How to teach yourself? Practice, practice, practice from as many scenarios as possible. Peel out and lean up stream - learning to stern squirt a decked boat whilst peeling out of an eddy will offer endless opportunities and from as awkward a starting position as possible (an onside stern pry)!

[Larry Horne]

boy, i wish i could say i never get thrown to my off (left) side while my paddle is on the right. But it happens quite a bit. It's tough, because sometimes you can save it with a good forward stroke. But if you don't save it you go over all goofy like you said. On the other hand if you just tuck real quick, sure you get a quick roll, but sometimes it's an unnecessary roll.
You know how sometimes you get thrown over quickly, or sometimes it's real slow. So if it's a slow deal i'll try to save it. If it's a quick deal, theres usually no chance of saving it, so I try to use the momentum, tuck quick, and roll quick. Where I am in a rapid will also have a big impact on if I try to save it or not.

[KNeal]

There are 2 different ways I deal with flipping to my offside (not that I EVER flip to my offside from my onside stroke, eh Bill? ).

• I tuck over the bow, place the paddle lengthwise on the bow, and as the boat flips upside down, I immediately sweep the paddle out and slam the blade down and hip snap the boat up. The idea is keeping the momentum of the offside flip going so you pop right up. Its a fast move and easily learned in the pool (or any still water) by seeing how fast you can nail 3 of those bow rolls.
  
  If I'm rotated toward my offside already, I'll do the "helicopter" roll. As I flip offside (not that I EVER flip to my offside from my onside stroke, eh Bill? ), I sweep the paddle toward the stern and fall (torso and face downward) toward the stern with my body over the paddle (kinda like falling onto the paddle), continue sweeping the paddle around toward the onside (feathering the blade so it stays ON the surface), slam the blade down and hip snap up. Again, you're trying to keep the momentum going. The cool thing about this move is you can actually keep your head (at least your eyes and nose) above water when you do it really well.

KNeal

[edg]

For c-1 instruction near you I'm biased (they motivated me to switch from k-1 to c-1) but try Cascade Raft and Kayak - in Eagle, Idaho, I think. All three boys (Chad, Kenneth & Tren) raced c-1/c-2 boats at the national level...edg

[Walsh]

I was taught to set up by placing the paddle blade forward along my offside gunwale and tucking against the front bag. When things are right, I sweep out and begin the roll.

I always practice going over in that tuck, to either side, so it's pretty much what I naturally do when I realize I'm going over. My first combat roll under real pressure was in Middle Keeney, a pool-drop rapid that I very much didn't want to swim. As I went over, I tucked, thinking that even if I couldn't roll up, I could just hang out under the boat, and use it to float me over all the bad stuff.

[oopsiflipped]

Kneal....sounds like your talking about a back deck roll...worked on it in the pool, but so far its a no go.

Walsh....what was the level on the New? You're not safe hanging out in Middle Keeney's at lower levels...especially to the left. It gets a bit shallow.

When i was still a raft guide and before i started canoeing I love it when the New got below 2' and the open boaters started showing up. We'd eat lunch at the big eddy on river left and most open boaters would sneak far left at Middle. The look on their faces when they realized there was no sneak at Lower was always great! Can't wait to get back east and finally hard boat the new!

[MichaelME]

Kneal,

Is what your describing similar to the K1 (sorry) rodeo back deck roll? If so, are you in an OC or C1?

Once I get some proper outfitting in the Viper, would you consider giving me some pointers?

[billhay4]

What I was trying to say is that the best position for a roll when you flip to the offside it the normal offside position. If you put your paddle on the deck, you then have to sweep it into position. Any such move puts the shoulder in a potential dislocate position and hitting a rock at the wrong time can dislocate it.
So, instead of flailing when you flip to the offside, move into a position from which a roll is easiest. For me, that is the offside draw position. The paddle comes up right where it needs to be.
Hope this clarifies things.
Bill

[KNeal]

Kneal, are you in an OC or C1?

Michael, whaddya think I paddle? What have you EVER seen me paddle? I'll be happy to help you with rolling the Viper. Let's "C" if we can commit to a Sunday in March at the Chester YMCA.

"Oopsiflipped", yes. The helicopter roll is also the back deck roll--quite similar to that piece-of-large steaming pile of dog doo kyack rodayo roll, thingy. I find the trick to being successful is staying pretty much over the paddle with the "t" grip hand lower in the water and the blade feathered to stay on top of the water. CAUTION--you are at risk for body/face exposure to stationary objects lurking under the water, so be sure where you're doing that move has some depth.

To bring Bill Hay's point back up, you CAN better prevent the offside flip by using other techniques, such as:

• - offside bracing (risky to the shoulders since you're on a high brace)
  - Swinging your body around to an aggressive stern pry and shove the blade as far back to the stern as you can reach (learned this off of Andrew Westwood in an open boat).

Now, those 2 cents should go FAR to stimulate the economy, or Wall Street.

KNeal

[Walsh]

If you put your paddle on the deck, you then have to sweep it into position. Any such move puts the shoulder in a potential dislocate position and hitting a rock at the wrong time can dislocate it.

I have to disagree strongly. Setting up with the paddle on the deck gives you protected "home position" and puts your arms and the paddle in front of you, protecting your shoulders. The sweep is achieved with torso flexibility - you shouldn't have to move your arms at all.

Maybe I'm describing it wrong - Mr. Lessels does a better job.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_eAbYp4lDw

[sbroam]

If you put your paddle on the deck, you then have to sweep it into position. Any such move puts the shoulder in a potential dislocate position and hitting a rock at the wrong time can dislocate it.

I think it matters how you sweep out - I remember the Bob Foote roll video where you essentially sweep the paddle out over your head, flip it over, then pull yourself over onto the paddle - that, I see as exposing your shoulder to harm. I prefer the Kent Ford style where you keep your forehead on the shaft of the paddle during the entire roll - I've never felt exposed using that roll.

[KNeal]

I'm not sure which shoulder Bill Hay is talking about. If it is the shoulder to your shaft hand, then he is "on the money". I really like his point about

For me, that is the offside draw position. The paddle comes up right where it needs to be.

That's a very good way to describe how I execute the bow roll. When done correctly, you do not even sweep your torso out--pretty cool. However, don't confuse the offside draw with the offside high brace (major shoulder dislocation setup).

KNeal