I know of the switch sides technique and that makes sense... it also seems to me that the offside roll from the bow paddler should work okay (I can reliably use an offside roll to roll a Gyramax, it seems that in the tandem where there's essentially less boat to each paddler it would be sufficient). What I'm really wondering about though was the one guy just leaning forward (you could lean back too but that exposes the face)... when you mentioned taking a C-2 with a novice I was wondering if the novice could be told to just tuck in and (presumably with much effort) the sternman could right the boat. I know that I've been taken down some good class 4 stuff in a Topo-Duo (K-2) (I like to think of myself as a decent C-1er, while I am a useless kayaker and wouldn't be anywhere near class 4 that i didn't fully intend to swim), and all I had to do was tuck forward and the other guy would roll us. I know kayak rolls are sometimes considered easier... for sure the dead weight from another kneeling canoeist is going to be more difficult than the dead weight from another sitting kayaker when it comes to bringing up a tandem partner who isn't helping... but on the other hand...
This is coming from the point of view of someone who has never properly learned a kayak roll, but it's always seemed to me that the kayak roll was some hip-snap magic with all that "stack the vertebrae to sit up properly" and "keep your head down" stuff to keep track of unless you wanted the roll to fail... while the C-1 roll is coming up solidly leaning on a paddle brace. As long as I at least put some thought into some sort of a set up then the C-1 roll will get me up no matter what. Does anyone know from experience if it IS too hard to roll a C-2 with only one guy working? It seems to me it might not be reliable enough to trust all the time but might work out some of the time too... Has anyone even tried to roll a C-2 with a novice paddler in the front?
How about an old Hydra now?
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C-2 rolling techniques
Jrsh- Now you've got me thinking about this. As far as the offside roll for bowman, if he had a good style, I'm sure this would be OK for the most part. Like you, I could roll my Gyramax pretty well with an offside, although I rarely used it unless I was stuck sideways in a hole, and offside was the downstream side. If I was running out of air, though, I used to get a little confused sometimes about the offside setup. The Gyramax was so easy to roll that a one-hand roll was possible. (I used to grab the cockpit rim with my left hand, over to the right side of the cockpit, tuck really hard, and sweep forward and down with a hard snap with my right hand and most times it would work OK as long as you got the really snappy hip action with it. I'm like you- I think it'd be possible to roll C-2 with a novice in the bow as long as they tucked really tight, and they were not one of those big people with a long torso and a lot of upper body weight. In my Hydra, most folks would not be able to lean all the way back because of the distance between the cockpits being too short for that. It seems like a good idea would be to tell them to let their head stay down in the water as the boat came around so that you would not have to be fighting all that weight on the last part of the roll, since your paddle blade would be getting deep in the water at that point. The problem would be getting the novice to do that. What I found to be true on those novice trips on real whitewater was that it's really hard to get a novice paddler to keep their body relaxed if they become freaked out in any way, so they would have to be the kind of person who can retain their wits in what, to them is a really panicky situation, so that they could will themselves to keep their face underwater. I'm sure you understand this, as I am sure you've instructed novices with rolling before.
Like yourself, I am a good C-1 paddler, but just never really got it in a kayak. I did buy one once, back in the 70's, but only used it a few times before I went back to open boats, and mostly, C-1. The kayak didn't really feel like a boat to me...it was like sitting on a board, or something. I know there are plenty of kayakers that will argue me on this, but I still firmly believe that the C-boat roll is vastly more powerful than the kayak roll. I found that I could roll my kayak OK as long as I was pretty fresh, but when I started getting tired, my technique would get sloppy, and I would miss rolls, whereas with the C-1, like you, I could just get the blade to the top of the water, and get on top of it and just sort of fall on it, for lack of a better description. Real slow, and sloppy looking, but at least it would get me up, and if my blade got deep, I could scull it back to the surface and get another shot, at least. I think the kayak roll is ungainly, and it's at it's weakest point during the last part of the roll, where it turns into a high brace, more than anything. I always had a problem with wanting to low brace with my kayak paddle too, it was so ingrained in me from canoe paddling. I have noticed that even with kayak paddlers who are very experienced, the fatigue factor makes a big difference in their rolling ability. Now you've got me wanting to take the old Duet back on the river. It's been a year since I did a novice trip on the Ocoee. It's such a blast to do those novice trips like that. Part of it is the challenge, and also, it's fun to watch someone who is seeing real whitewater from the bow of a real boat for the first time. They get super excited, and plumb outright scared sometimes too, of course, but they sure do remember it! Once I took this guy who was a world class skydiver (used to compete in those multi-diver jumps trying to beat the world record for the most jumpers, and all that) Right from the put-in on the Ocoee, he was whooping and hollering, and being real cool under pressure because of his sport, we did great, with no probs at all on the trip. Well, long story short, to my knowledge, he never has jumped again since then, several years ago. He immediately bought a boat and gear (kayak, unfortunately, lol) , joined a good whitewater club out of Oak Ridge, TN, and quickly became an expert, committed paddler! I think I'll take that old Gyramax up to Clear Creek this weekend. How many times do you get to paddle good flow in Sept. with nice warm temps! God bless, Richard
Like yourself, I am a good C-1 paddler, but just never really got it in a kayak. I did buy one once, back in the 70's, but only used it a few times before I went back to open boats, and mostly, C-1. The kayak didn't really feel like a boat to me...it was like sitting on a board, or something. I know there are plenty of kayakers that will argue me on this, but I still firmly believe that the C-boat roll is vastly more powerful than the kayak roll. I found that I could roll my kayak OK as long as I was pretty fresh, but when I started getting tired, my technique would get sloppy, and I would miss rolls, whereas with the C-1, like you, I could just get the blade to the top of the water, and get on top of it and just sort of fall on it, for lack of a better description. Real slow, and sloppy looking, but at least it would get me up, and if my blade got deep, I could scull it back to the surface and get another shot, at least. I think the kayak roll is ungainly, and it's at it's weakest point during the last part of the roll, where it turns into a high brace, more than anything. I always had a problem with wanting to low brace with my kayak paddle too, it was so ingrained in me from canoe paddling. I have noticed that even with kayak paddlers who are very experienced, the fatigue factor makes a big difference in their rolling ability. Now you've got me wanting to take the old Duet back on the river. It's been a year since I did a novice trip on the Ocoee. It's such a blast to do those novice trips like that. Part of it is the challenge, and also, it's fun to watch someone who is seeing real whitewater from the bow of a real boat for the first time. They get super excited, and plumb outright scared sometimes too, of course, but they sure do remember it! Once I took this guy who was a world class skydiver (used to compete in those multi-diver jumps trying to beat the world record for the most jumpers, and all that) Right from the put-in on the Ocoee, he was whooping and hollering, and being real cool under pressure because of his sport, we did great, with no probs at all on the trip. Well, long story short, to my knowledge, he never has jumped again since then, several years ago. He immediately bought a boat and gear (kayak, unfortunately, lol) , joined a good whitewater club out of Oak Ridge, TN, and quickly became an expert, committed paddler! I think I'll take that old Gyramax up to Clear Creek this weekend. How many times do you get to paddle good flow in Sept. with nice warm temps! God bless, Richard
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Berkshire Jack
- Pain Boater
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:58 pm
- Location: Berkshires, Massachusetts
In Answer to Your Question
JRSH92,
I owned a Hydra Centaur C2, and should never had sold it. Lots of good times in that boat. Had to make room in the garage for other boats.
Anyway, in answer to your question, if I put a very lightweight person in either the bow or stern (think 8 year old) and had them tuck forward when we went over, I could roll the boat upright whether I was in the stern or bow. I was not able to do that with an adult in the bow, no matter how hard they tucked. I don't remember trying it with myself in the bow and an adult in the stern. My partner at the time (ex-wife) learned how to do a cross roll, and we could reliably get the boat up in flatwater and had a few combat successes too. Doing the cross roll, she didn't have to switch hands on the paddle and could set up quickly.
The one strange thing I noted from those attempts, is that if I positioned myself in the bow and had a kid in the stern, it was very noticeably easier to roll the boat, than if I was in the stern and the child was in the rear. For some reason, it was just easier to roll that C2, if the stronger roller was in the front. I don't have any satisfactory answer as to why this happened this way, but it did.(':D')
I owned a Hydra Centaur C2, and should never had sold it. Lots of good times in that boat. Had to make room in the garage for other boats.
Anyway, in answer to your question, if I put a very lightweight person in either the bow or stern (think 8 year old) and had them tuck forward when we went over, I could roll the boat upright whether I was in the stern or bow. I was not able to do that with an adult in the bow, no matter how hard they tucked. I don't remember trying it with myself in the bow and an adult in the stern. My partner at the time (ex-wife) learned how to do a cross roll, and we could reliably get the boat up in flatwater and had a few combat successes too. Doing the cross roll, she didn't have to switch hands on the paddle and could set up quickly.
The one strange thing I noted from those attempts, is that if I positioned myself in the bow and had a kid in the stern, it was very noticeably easier to roll the boat, than if I was in the stern and the child was in the rear. For some reason, it was just easier to roll that C2, if the stronger roller was in the front. I don't have any satisfactory answer as to why this happened this way, but it did.(':D')
C1-er