As I mentioned here: http://cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php?t=7960998 I really hated my Atom's standard outfitting. It was impossible to tighten the thigh straps once you were in the boat-- once you were in there you were pushing it so hard into the coaming that it couldn't slide over itself.
The as suggested, I decided to just replace the webbing with velcro-less stuff and use a different securing system-- I ended up with some giant backpack-style buckles and plenty of 2" webbing.
The way I set it up, the buckles don't fully separate the straps, as quick release buckles on open boat straps do. They're secured to the strap (kept from sliding by one of those "tri-glide" devices) near the center of the boat. The buckles' only function is so the other end of the webbing has something to secure back to-- just what the velcro did originally.
I thought about lap belts once the thigh straps was done. I thought that one might offer a little more security and no worries while rolling... the two metal rings on opposing sides of the cockpit were already there, i figured all I needed to do was run something from one directly to the other. My dad then pointed out that if I flipped the male/female buckles on one of the straps, the loose ends of the straps can actually secure to the other strap to keep tension.
What this means is that I get the more easily escapable thigh straps for steep pin-prone rivers, plus the ability to buckle them across my lap easily. All I need is to do is crank the straps down a tiny bit more when I'm using them as a belt, but otherwise there are no changes or adjustments needed. It takes all of 15 seconds to go from the safer, easy to bail out thigh straps to the lap belt. [/url]
I do personally not paddle boats any more that have a strap setup that does not completely open.
After a near drowning experience in a boat I was trying out a couple of years ago and another very unpleasant experience where I got trapped in a boat with such an outfitting I will never again ppaddle a boat with is outfitted like that. All my thing strap systems are very simple, 2 inch webbing attached at the top anchor, then running through the crotch anchor and looping back. The attachment and tensioning is done with a weight belt cam buckle from a dive shop. The secona I open the buckle, everything separates completely. Weight belt buckles are also easier to open under load than the fastex style buckles, I find.
I would only use a non separating system if the straps were setup in a way to allow me to exit the boat without having to open the straps.
I always hear people call lap belts a suicide belt, but in my personal experience a lap belt with an aircraft or VW beetle style buckle that separates immediately upon activation is a lot safer than a non-searating thigh strap system. They are the REAL suicide belts!!
Rant over.
TGG!!
Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing - Henry David Thoreau
I can easily work my way out of the thigh straps without loosening them at all... this might not be the case if I was being pushed forward into the boat in a pin situation, but on land or in the water it's never a problem for me to just scoot backwards and then stand right up out of the thigh straps. The lap belt may be a different story, but it separates fully as soon as the buckle is released.
Instead of those male-female "quick release" clipping buckles, why don't you use a quick release buckle like the type you find on rescue PFDs? The lever ones. It would make no difference to your set up, other than the buckle. I'd rather just have to yank something than to pinch something fairly precisely with my fingers.
You could run webbing from the quick release to the loop of your skirt, so that the lap belt etc. would all release when you pull your skirt.
In all of my boats, my thigh straps attach to a loop of webbing on a rescue buckle, so with the yank of one cord, my straps both come loose at the centre/base.
Pat.
p.s. Just realized why - it's so you can take away the lap belt and connect the same buckles into just thigh straps, correct? Good thinking... as long you're comfortable with the releasability.
Last edited by yarnellboat on Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm working on a safety-release system which, if there's enough demand, I'll put together (little or no profit) - or I can just put the drawings out to the public. You'll need some metal-fabrication skills though.
The basic layout will be a pivoting belt-bracket retainer which will be retained by a simple cord-released latch. Both thigh straps would be released completely from their center attachments. The basic layout exists only in my head but if I have time, I'll try and work out the real details.
I was doing something very similar in the Atom (which I've been using to surf O-Deck on the Potomac!!) I was just using a car tie-down strap across my lap, attaching to the two side anchor points, as a lap belt.
I felt that even with this improvised lap belt and the normal thigh straps I'd still be able to slip out and swim if necessary.
But after paddling the boat again the other day, I've changed my mind. I don't like it.
I actually feel like I may want to use the furthest (towards the knees) attachment if I am using the lap belt. The closer the attachment is, the better it holds me on the saddle (and therefore in the boat), BUT my knees get less and less secure the closer the straps get.
While you can't fall out of the boat just because your knees are loose, I like to feel really secure, and I just don't like being belted into the saddle but with my knees "floating"... without a bulkhead or additional knee straps (the Atom has neither) to hold down my knees, I'd just assume have the straps pretty far forward. The lap belt takes care of holding your hips in the boat so I see no benefit from moving the straps towards your crotch if you're using both straps and a belt.[/u]
I have similar blocks to the side of my knees, but I don't like them to be moving up and down as much as they do with the thigh straps all the way towards the crotch... I guess it's just a matter of personal preference though.
I found today that on dry land it's easy to get out of the boat without loosening or undoing either the straps OR the belt. Upside down, I usually find it even easier-- due to adrenaline plus gravity. The problem is a potential pin situation, where it wouldn't be so easy to work my way out.
I probably will not be back on the river (whitewater river, at least) until next spring, so I have time to order some quick release airplane-seatbelt style buckles. I plan to cut down the coaming (I actually have a spare coaming thing that the boat came with, so even if this went badly I could replace it) to allow the straps to slide easily, which now they don't-- even after releasing the buckles, they don't just loosen on their own. The combination of the quick release and that actually loosening when released would make me feel a lot comfortable than the current setup-- a fastex buckle and friction that keeps the outfitting tight even after it's "opened".
Another option I'm looking at is just two separate systems for the straps and lapbelt, allowing both thigh straps to fully separate when the release is pulled (as TGG suggests). It wouldn't be a cute little strap to belt conversion thing, but it would allow the option of either using the lapbelt or not, while allowing everything to fully separate. I'd also be using full quick releases instead of fastex buckles.
My opinion is you need a quick release for your outfitting. You may also want to tighten the foam ou fitting in your boat. My outfitting is so tight I can not get in the boat with pants on. Having a really tight out fitting wedges you into the boat. The result is straps and outfitting holds you into the boat not just the straps. Just my 2 cents.
I'll definitely be getting quick releases, the buckles should be a temporary thing (also, I won't be out on whitewater probably until spring so the fastex won't be in use on the river ever, possibly)... I'll look at options for the foam. Up north here sometimes you can be in a bathing suit (shorts) but other times you need a full wetsuit... getting foam so precisely fit that I couldn't fit with thicker clothes on isn't an option, unfortunately... but it would be tighter than it is now at least.
I changed the thigh straps over so that they now fully separate when the fastex buckles are released. In a moment of resourcefulness (well... technically, I was just out of webbing) I figured that the old thigh straps with their overlapping velcro could be used as a lapbelt. I secured them (facing alternately up and down) to the rings on the side of the boat, so I bring the right one over my lap and then stick the left one down on top of it to secure it. With the velcro lapbelt (which has a loose end to grab onto) and the fastex (which are pretty easy to open), I can actually get fully released without ever taking my forehead off the front deck. From there, I can just stand up or tumble forwards, etc to get out of the boat. In a vertical pin, this actually would be easily escapable, even though that seems to be the main concern people have with lapbelts.
