Why isn't a roll one of the first things learned

[insolence]

why isn't a roll the first thing?

sometimes it's teachers missing - when I started out, I had nothing but two yakers as company who both had NO idea how to work a Cboat nor how to teach a Cboater...

and there's one more thing - sometimes it just takes time to make a roll really reliable. Especially with an open boat it's a hard thing to execute (at least for me). I swam a lot after having actually learned my roll.I got nearly away from swimming when I started freestyle, but there are stil some rare situations that I swim, and still flipping over is the most dreadful thing to me. When I flip, I still get shocked and scared since there's still the "Oh no, I'll swim" inside my head while my body already executes the roll. Don't like the feeling and I'm happy rolling has become a reflex, took long enough.
But a guarantee it will work is never given. And I have paddled rivers I would not have wanted to swim - so on the river I'll do anything not to fall over

[philcanoe]

If executed properly it will not damage your shoulders. I can tell when my form is off, your shoulders will tell you you are doing something wrong.

yes...

However when a low brace is even sometimes too much, it's not the roll... and no I'm not muscling the boat up... à la the instructions of 1980's instructor Whitesell... it's been a bit updated, to a more Carolyn Peterson version, of the Bob Foote roll. Three that I think, have a well enough roll.... still there are other rolls, I should try.

[Ladd]

Adam and Golder,

I am thinking of going to the roll session tonight at the Asheville YMCA if you are interested. I just bought my first C1 and want to try rolling and test the outfitting. I do have an open boat roll (at least in a Zoom and Spark) and would be glad to help with that. I think the pool opens at 7pm.

Ladd

[jakke]

I do agree rolling is something (O)C1 playboaters are mostly learning too late, but... .
Watch at the learning curve in a canoe. You only have one blade, strokes are harder, you have to learn a lot. Not that I intend to start a flameware about kayak, but they have 2 blades and thus can compensate for their errors on the one side by doing an equal error on the other side. The learning curve is a lot flatter in a kayak. I believe that an OC1 paddler on a class III river or higher often has a better technique then a kayak paddler, since an OC1 paddler simply needs it, while a lot of kayakers still can paddle WWIII on power an double blades.
So point one: in a canoe there is a lot more to learn.

Point 2. There are not too many instructors around that know how to roll, and even fewer that know how to teach it. Certainly rolling an OC requires tight fitting and power in the right muscles.

People starting to playboat should learn to roll asap. It will bring confidence, more and faster playing, ... . But right before every swim or every roll, you made a mistake. Balance wise, route choice, doesn't matter, something went wrong in such a way you couldn't prevent tipping over. Of course you can't learn how to prevent if you never try... .

Last but not least rolling is nice, but no replacement for good swimming self-rescue skills. Watch the discussed video of the kayak instructor recently posted. He'll probably have a very good roll, but yet he failed and ended swimming. Your swimming should be better then your rolling, though you should practice the swimming as few times as possible .

Oh, and if you're on a river or a section you really don't want to swim, it might be wise not to run it. One day or another you do tip over, and what will you do then? Not frightening people, but I've been thought: if you don't want to swim a rapid, don't paddle it. And it's not that you should skip every section you wouldn't jump into with bathing suit, but you should feel comfortable enough to swim the section before you paddle it, even with a bombproof roll.

[2opnboat1]

Not frightening people, but I've been thought: if you don't want to swim a rapid, don't paddle it. And it's not that you should skip every section you wouldn't jump into with bathing suit, but you should feel comfortable enough to swim the section before you paddle it, even with a bombproof roll.


BS this is the biggest line I have ever read I dont want to swim class 0 if I am not wanting to. So by this thinking is there anything that would have been first D'd over class 2

[jrsh92]

Do more C-1ers than OC-1ers have a roll? C-1's can be very capable, but some are unpredictable and C-1ers play more than openboaters. This contributes to them needing to roll a lot more often. Plus, they're much easier to roll.
In an OC-1, especially knowing that a flip means a swim, I'll nearly never tip (the exception may be in a Zoom ). On the other hand, in an edgy C-1 I'll make it down the river fine but usually once a day find myself doing something dumb (dropping in on a steep hole to surf or doing a backwards eddy turn or something. Do you know how hard it is to pull off a backwards eddy turn successfully?) and find myself upside down. It's just so much more tempting to play knowing that if I have to roll my boat will be dry... I'm not sure if playing of all sorts is more practical in a C-1, or if rolling is just more practical in a C-1. Either way, you can screw around and not have to empty out. Even if a closed boat wasnt' edgy or tippy, flips happen more because a roll is easier so people are more willing to take risks.

Oh, and if you're on a river or a section you really don't want to swim, it might be wise not to run it.

This is very wise. @ 2opnboat1: It's not about wanting to swim it, it's about being comfortable swimming it and thinking that you could swim it safely. I'd agree that few people WANT to swim at all, but I'd think you would also agree that if you look at a rapid and think that you'd come out the bottom bruised, somehow broken, or drowned, then you'll probably think twice about running it.

[jakke]

@jrsh92: thanks for formulating my thoughts in a more comprehensive way. Of course most people don't want to swim. We're out canoeing, not swimming

[yarnellboat]

True, the smaller the boat I'm in, the more I need to roll, especially in a C-1 playboat, but I don't find rolling my C-1 any easier than my open boat. I'm just generally more comfortable & confident in my OC-1 and everything feels more natural in the open boat, including rolling.

As with kayaking, I'm sure people you get into C-1 learn to roll pretty early relative to open canoes. I think it has something to do with being skirted in - it's easier for people to eject from an open boat.

Pat.

[Louie]

goin to the river and not swimmin is like openin a bottle of wine and only smellin it

[philcanoe]

I see u swim, with mouth open too...

[yarnellboat]

Maybe it's catchin' on a bit here. In our little canoeing backwoods on the west coast, at the pool session this week there was 5 open boats, 2 C-1s, and no kayaks!!?

Pat.

[TheKrikkitWars]

by the way, kricketwars: what exactly are you referring to as a 'goon stroke'?

Power stroke, left to drift back into a rudder before you take the blade out to keep from turning the boat.

[jscottl67]

I think another factor is outfitting. Simply put, most beginner OCers are in a 2nd or 5th hand boat to start with, with outfitting to match. Even with a new boat, outfitting has to be customized to be tight enough for a solid roll. That's another skill that is learned over time, but it's almost a prerequisite.

[oopsiflipped]

i 2nd the outfitting. after i got out my fly for a while and into c1, i couldn't believe how crazy loose the fly was when i got back in.

[sbroam]

Rolling is *very* outfitting dependent and outfitting is very paddler specific...