Growth of our sport
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oopsiflipped
- CBoats Addict
- Posts: 954
- Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:32 am
Why doesn't team Esquif make a video? The only professional video footage you see is a few c-1 shots and most people just think it is some werid kayaker who is using a canoe paddle.
A lot of people canoe in MN and WI but they have never seen an actual whitewater canoe.
I think it is a huge lack of public publicity
A lot of people canoe in MN and WI but they have never seen an actual whitewater canoe.
I think it is a huge lack of public publicity
Raft Guides
These are the people who mix with the potential paddlers! If you could get them to not only talk up canoers but also know where the schools are it could be very good.
Bill
Bill
dooley, you're gonna have to bleach your hair blond to be brad pitt's boating double!Dooleyoc-1 wrote: ***the best thing anyone could do would be get Hollywood to make another badass mainstream whitewater canoeing movie featuring Brad Pitt and Christian Bale. The sport would double every year for the next 5 years after the movie came out.[/b]
Joe
growth of our sport
Hey Richard, I have spent time in three white water shops/ outfitters here around the Coosa River asking for open boat classes, roll classes etc and they say there is nothing available in this area. On any given weekend in summer with recreational flows there are as many as 150 to 200 people a day paddeling this river. Open boaters are as rare as hens teeth ie.. solo boats with flotation, saddles and such. Some even ask why are you wearing that helment. Most pfd/s laying in the boat or used for cushion. When they see my tiny Ocoee some ask how old is it. I have never seen one of those bofore. If I dare surf at the GAP some people clap for me as if they have never seen an open boat do that. I wish Mohawk could come down this summer and do a clinic, and taach some basics to promote open boating. You and Horizongfx, Dooley, GDI, and anyone else could come down here and show out a little and get some of the young people interested in the sport. I know this is not the Ocoee or the Tellico but this is all we have to offer. Teach our youth and then we can make road trips north. Help needed before we die. Numbers are small. Regards D-Caption
I have canoes and kayaks the kids like the kayaks for the independence they have. They can also jump in a kayak(rec) and shoot across the lake with very little work or knowledge. They jump in a canoe with no training and they go in a circle and someone is yelling at them. How many people go buy a canoe or kayak with no experience at all. This leads people to believe the canoe is a lot harder to use and people do not want to be bothered. The Canoe does require more training like doing a proper j-stroke and power stroke one you get that it is a lot more enjoyable. Also People who buy OC1 don't buy boats like kayakers. They also keep them a long time! so there are not many used boat So what might help is maybe a 1 or 2 season lease Then sell the boat at a reduce cost But that still may not be worth it unless you can get more people boating
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Craig Smerda
- L'Edge Designer
- Posts: 2815
- Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:59 am
- Location: WaUSAu Wisconsin USA North America Earth, etc.
To start "we" need to appeal to people that understand the committment of time, training and drive to get involved in the first place... forget the "ball sports" kids and their parents... it's kids and parents that are into BMX, skiing/snowboarding, rock climbing, camping and possibly even paddling of some nature. I think the closest comparison to our sport is surfing... and there's "supposedly" over a million surfers in the world.
Whitewater paddling isn't something the majority of people anywhere in the world can just go do after school or work... you've gotta want it.
Speaking personally... I've had the least amount of time on the water in the past three years that I have since I started paddling whitewater... but my biggest priority my family has cut my paddling travel 90% and our local water has been extremely limited once spring is over. I used to get 100 days + a year on the water. This year aside from being on the whitewater course right here in my town (ONE BIG WAY TO EXPOSE NEW PEOPLE TO THE SPORT AND NOT SOMETHING MOST PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO) I think I probably got a dozen days on the water. Granted... there was stuff to paddle... but I'm not interested in paddling when the water gets low like I used to when I was just starting out and driving 100 miles round trip two-four days a week so I could learn and get better. At some point though... I look forward to taking my daughter to the river and if she chooses to want to keep coming I'll facilitate that desire the best I can... but it'll be the same if she wants to go to dance classes, play soccer or be on the math team.
New boat designs might help too... but who knows???
Whitewater paddling isn't something the majority of people anywhere in the world can just go do after school or work... you've gotta want it.
Speaking personally... I've had the least amount of time on the water in the past three years that I have since I started paddling whitewater... but my biggest priority my family has cut my paddling travel 90% and our local water has been extremely limited once spring is over. I used to get 100 days + a year on the water. This year aside from being on the whitewater course right here in my town (ONE BIG WAY TO EXPOSE NEW PEOPLE TO THE SPORT AND NOT SOMETHING MOST PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO) I think I probably got a dozen days on the water. Granted... there was stuff to paddle... but I'm not interested in paddling when the water gets low like I used to when I was just starting out and driving 100 miles round trip two-four days a week so I could learn and get better. At some point though... I look forward to taking my daughter to the river and if she chooses to want to keep coming I'll facilitate that desire the best I can... but it'll be the same if she wants to go to dance classes, play soccer or be on the math team.
New boat designs might help too... but who knows???
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yarnellboat
- C Maven
- Posts: 1331
- Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:54 pm
- Location: Winnipeg
- Contact:
Retail is one thing...
People getting into new sports need the opportunity to demo and rent.
Clubs need to recruit younger members, by recruiting at scouts and camps and schools, including colleges and universities for people who already have a sporty or outdoor lifestyle (bike, climb, ski, etc.) but haven't seen or tried ww canoeing.
Make it accessible. If somebody new wants to see and try a canoe now, how do they do that?
First point of contact is often related to products visible at trusted local outdoor retailers.
Pat.
People getting into new sports need the opportunity to demo and rent.
Clubs need to recruit younger members, by recruiting at scouts and camps and schools, including colleges and universities for people who already have a sporty or outdoor lifestyle (bike, climb, ski, etc.) but haven't seen or tried ww canoeing.
Make it accessible. If somebody new wants to see and try a canoe now, how do they do that?
First point of contact is often related to products visible at trusted local outdoor retailers.
Pat.
Another problem is the liability issue with minors. Even a flat water trip with the the boy scouts the AMC will not touch the trip. I had to do the trip myself and use the boy scout insurance. They have become very strict in what they allow my friend is a Scout master. They go on a river trip they have to mark out a swimming area with rope and floating bottles
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Louie
not down here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNQytW8 ... re=channel
we about as scared of lawyers as we are kayakers............ which ain't much
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNQytW8 ... re=channel
we about as scared of lawyers as we are kayakers............ which ain't much
Market Research
Business schools at local universities are always looking for opportunities for real-life market research. Call the Dean of the Business school at UTC, get in touch with the marketing professor teaching senior marketing students. Good business schools will perform scientific market research, which segments the market into demographics, buyer motivations, purchasing ability, etc.
We can pontificate all day, but we are market insiders. We don't always recognize potential new consumer "touch points." It's been a long time since we've had the motive to take up canoeing. Now, our motives for canoeing are different from what they were. Also, for canoe manufacturers, I imagine an average of 3 - 6 year difference between someone taking up canoeing and someone purchasing a new boat. For instance, a lot of people starting canoeing aren't able to purchase a $1500 boat. That 3 to 6 year difference, people are sponges for paddling conventional wisdom: "New boats aren't made like they used to", "Mohawk has crappy ABS", "Kayaking is easier than canoeing", "Only old people paddle canoes", etc. During that 3 year period, I've seen 10 people in the past 4 years go from canoeing to kayaking, and all had different motives. Losing someone after 2 years of grooming with canoe skills is more costly loss. They were on the cusp of becoming a canoeist.
Next, get in touch with the MBA professor teaching the final Strategy Course. Typically, the students for that course will work with a local company as a consultant. Assuming a good group, they will take a balanced scorecard, SWOT, or a --insert business jargon-- approach. They will compile a report including information on history of the company, industry norms, industry competitors, market size and segmentation. Then, they will state the current conditions for the company, and future recommendations. Part of the value is someone asking detailed questions about your business. You have to explain to someone who knows nothing what you do. Your responses will give you as much insight as the report will.
I'm not discounting Louie's ideas, which I think are great. However, this lack of participation isn't just a canoe event. I consider canoeing an old sport, i.e. it's been done for a long time. Much like reading books, going outside, joining the community groups, and college fraternities, the popularity for traditional activities is waning. New generations are throwing kinks in traditional businesses. Camps and boy scouts will have half as many participants as 30 years ago.
No matter what, the MBA students will recommend a "Mohawk Canoes" group on Facebook. People with spreadsheets can provide some good ideas, just don't base your entire business model on it.
cw
We can pontificate all day, but we are market insiders. We don't always recognize potential new consumer "touch points." It's been a long time since we've had the motive to take up canoeing. Now, our motives for canoeing are different from what they were. Also, for canoe manufacturers, I imagine an average of 3 - 6 year difference between someone taking up canoeing and someone purchasing a new boat. For instance, a lot of people starting canoeing aren't able to purchase a $1500 boat. That 3 to 6 year difference, people are sponges for paddling conventional wisdom: "New boats aren't made like they used to", "Mohawk has crappy ABS", "Kayaking is easier than canoeing", "Only old people paddle canoes", etc. During that 3 year period, I've seen 10 people in the past 4 years go from canoeing to kayaking, and all had different motives. Losing someone after 2 years of grooming with canoe skills is more costly loss. They were on the cusp of becoming a canoeist.
Next, get in touch with the MBA professor teaching the final Strategy Course. Typically, the students for that course will work with a local company as a consultant. Assuming a good group, they will take a balanced scorecard, SWOT, or a --insert business jargon-- approach. They will compile a report including information on history of the company, industry norms, industry competitors, market size and segmentation. Then, they will state the current conditions for the company, and future recommendations. Part of the value is someone asking detailed questions about your business. You have to explain to someone who knows nothing what you do. Your responses will give you as much insight as the report will.
I'm not discounting Louie's ideas, which I think are great. However, this lack of participation isn't just a canoe event. I consider canoeing an old sport, i.e. it's been done for a long time. Much like reading books, going outside, joining the community groups, and college fraternities, the popularity for traditional activities is waning. New generations are throwing kinks in traditional businesses. Camps and boy scouts will have half as many participants as 30 years ago.
No matter what, the MBA students will recommend a "Mohawk Canoes" group on Facebook. People with spreadsheets can provide some good ideas, just don't base your entire business model on it.
cw
I think that some of the problem is us. I'm sure at least half of us know someone who has interest in the sport and has even asked us "hey, when are you gonna take or teach me." Lets face it, we would all rather go run better water that have to go to the Hiwasee or Nanty. I myself dont mind taking one for the team. I'll sacrifice an Ocoee weekend for a newbie trip once in a while. Anyhow what I'm trying to get to. During ALF, some of us should rally up some of our friends that would love to give it a go and i'll help out, why not. Maybe if you bring a friend, that will qualify you for a second chance drawing. There is always a drawing of some sort for prizes, right. Just a thought. if it comes together and i get some feedback, I'll get involved. 
Team Blackfly
http://www.blackflycanoes.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.astraldesigns.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.immersionresearch.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.blackflycanoes.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.astraldesigns.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.immersionresearch.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I do a program for Grayson Highlands State Park every year. The name is Adventure Rangers. It is for area teenagers (Northwest NC/Southwest VA) They come out for a week of outdoor adventure. They backpack and canoe. The canoe trip is on the New River in VA class I mostly with a easy class II at the end. The park provides the kids with the equipement and the kids have a great time. They paddle Old Town Discovery canoes tandem. They learn to work together in the boat as a team. They also learn how to work the river, catching eddies, surf, and swiftwater rescue. The program usually has the same kids come back every year, they love the canoe trip because its fun. They learn that it is good to respect the water and canoe but also that it can be a blast.
Greybear
P.S. I have two kids that since the program still call and want to run the rivers in CANOES.
Greybear
P.S. I have two kids that since the program still call and want to run the rivers in CANOES.
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RodeoClown
- BlackFly Canoes
- Posts: 631
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:54 pm
- Location: New Hampton, NH
- Contact:
I've been thinking about this a good bit lately, and have a couple of thoughts:
1. Exposure. Kayaking has a fair number of events that get at least some exposure outside the paddling world- Teva Mountain Games for example. Also mainstream advertisements, etc. Even within the paddling world, there's not much canoe exposure. Gauley fest, Cheat fest, etc, there are no canoes on display. Do something flashy, and it'll get some interest. The problem is we don't have the critical mass to do this- it needs to have enough people interested to be viable and get more people interested- but there aren't enough people interested right now. Success breeds success
2. We do a pretty terrible job of selling the sport when we do get the chance. I hear over and over about how canoeing is SOOOO much harder than kayaking, takes SOOO much longer to master, etc. I think a lot of it is just trying to feel superior- sorry, but that's my take on it. In some ways, canoeing IS harder, but in other ways, it's a lot more friendly for beginners. The number one reason people give up kayaking after the first few tries is the "flip and swim" factor. The vast majority of kayak school students don't master the roll right away, and it's very frustrating for them, and a lot give up. On the other hand, you can be a darn good open boater without a roll. On top of that, the boats are a lot more stable and less edgy. The first time you get in a canoe, it is hard to make it go straight- but if you watch someone get in a whitewater kayak for the first time, they're going to be going around in circles too. They're really pretty pitiful at bracing too. One paddle blade is a disadvantage, but it's more than made up for with the increase in leverage. If you keep telling people that kayaking is easier and more fun, of course they're going to kayak. Work the strong points.
3. Design stagnation. While the kayaks being produced and paddled today are vastly different from the kayaks 10, 15, or 20 years ago, canoes- with some exceptions...aren't. You can still show up to the put in with a canoe from 15 or 20 years ago, and you won't get any funny looks from other canoers. Show up with a kayak of the same vintage, and the other kayakers will ask where you found it. Why does this matter? Variety is the spice of life. People like doing things that are new and different. That could mean doing a new run, or mean paddling a new and different boat on the same local run. With gas prices constantly rising, staying local is pretty appealing. If it's always the same boat on the same water, it can get boring after a while. And I'm not talking about going from a 12 foot boat to an 11 foot boat. In kayaking, you have creekboats, playboats, river running playboats, boats for going fast, squirtboats.... In canoeing (with a few execptions) you have... canoes. If canoeing is to grow in popularity, it needs to be "cooler." To making canoeing cool, you need cool canoes. Why aren't there more boats like the Taureau or Blackfly? Something progressive, something different, more variety. A lot of canoers diss these boats as not really being canoes. What ever happened to "open boat, open mind?"
Of course, if we can figure out how to get them to stop filling up with water, we'll be set....
Jeremy
1. Exposure. Kayaking has a fair number of events that get at least some exposure outside the paddling world- Teva Mountain Games for example. Also mainstream advertisements, etc. Even within the paddling world, there's not much canoe exposure. Gauley fest, Cheat fest, etc, there are no canoes on display. Do something flashy, and it'll get some interest. The problem is we don't have the critical mass to do this- it needs to have enough people interested to be viable and get more people interested- but there aren't enough people interested right now. Success breeds success
2. We do a pretty terrible job of selling the sport when we do get the chance. I hear over and over about how canoeing is SOOOO much harder than kayaking, takes SOOO much longer to master, etc. I think a lot of it is just trying to feel superior- sorry, but that's my take on it. In some ways, canoeing IS harder, but in other ways, it's a lot more friendly for beginners. The number one reason people give up kayaking after the first few tries is the "flip and swim" factor. The vast majority of kayak school students don't master the roll right away, and it's very frustrating for them, and a lot give up. On the other hand, you can be a darn good open boater without a roll. On top of that, the boats are a lot more stable and less edgy. The first time you get in a canoe, it is hard to make it go straight- but if you watch someone get in a whitewater kayak for the first time, they're going to be going around in circles too. They're really pretty pitiful at bracing too. One paddle blade is a disadvantage, but it's more than made up for with the increase in leverage. If you keep telling people that kayaking is easier and more fun, of course they're going to kayak. Work the strong points.
3. Design stagnation. While the kayaks being produced and paddled today are vastly different from the kayaks 10, 15, or 20 years ago, canoes- with some exceptions...aren't. You can still show up to the put in with a canoe from 15 or 20 years ago, and you won't get any funny looks from other canoers. Show up with a kayak of the same vintage, and the other kayakers will ask where you found it. Why does this matter? Variety is the spice of life. People like doing things that are new and different. That could mean doing a new run, or mean paddling a new and different boat on the same local run. With gas prices constantly rising, staying local is pretty appealing. If it's always the same boat on the same water, it can get boring after a while. And I'm not talking about going from a 12 foot boat to an 11 foot boat. In kayaking, you have creekboats, playboats, river running playboats, boats for going fast, squirtboats.... In canoeing (with a few execptions) you have... canoes. If canoeing is to grow in popularity, it needs to be "cooler." To making canoeing cool, you need cool canoes. Why aren't there more boats like the Taureau or Blackfly? Something progressive, something different, more variety. A lot of canoers diss these boats as not really being canoes. What ever happened to "open boat, open mind?"
Of course, if we can figure out how to get them to stop filling up with water, we'll be set....
Jeremy