HELP Viper trim question

[Mike W.]

The back-rest came out of my Viper tonight . The boat is a full cut with the standard (small) cockpit opening. I'm 190lbs. The old back-rest was 1" thick at the center.

Unless I lean forward, the stern deck slices through the water when paddling forward in flatwater (the stern tip is just at the surface). This is great for stern-squirts , but I think it's hurting my speed. Should I move myself forward or stay where I am? If I do go forward, how far?

I've got to make & install the new back-rest tomorrow (Thursday) night , since I leave Friday morning for a race.

Thanks,
Mike W.

[Sir Adam]

If you can really boat well with the stern at the waterline, leave it...I'm getting to the point that to turn I can just "twitch", thereby driving that stern rail under and slicing one way or another, while still paddling ahead. I think that's actually faster....

But, if you want a little more speed, add another inch to your backrest. You'll be a bit more balanced (though the bow may dive into big waves a bit more, thereby slowing you down more), and who knows, you might be able to do a cartwheel . I used to be able to cartwheel mine, but since I've lost a lot of weight (stupid bacteria from the carribbean ) I doubt I can now....

[KNeal]

Glad to hear you've been getting the Viper out . Have you replaced the old, narrow seat and added hip pads yet? As I remember your backrest position from when I paddled it, the placement was pretty much the way I would like to keep it. Yes, the stern does stay at the surface of the water, but the bow was riding the way I liked it when paddling through wave trains and entering holes (on purpose ) for surfing and playing--the placement also made your stern about ideal for engaging stern squirts. Your weight is very close to mine so I encourage you to keep it the way it was.

The James has been very nice up here, but I haven't taken advantage of it a whole lot. Call or email me if you can make it up this way some weekend and we'll take the time to check the trim and outfitting .

KNeal

[PAC]

Can I get close up photos of your Viper set ups (anyone - Adam, Mike, etc.). I'm trying to figure out my set up and I'm moving about too much. I can stay in if I apply a lot of leverage pressure on my feet / ankles but this leads to me getting stiff "deadlegs" quicker than normal. Also I at times "fall out" of the boat - not enjoyable in cool water.
I'm thinking I need a higher / bigger butt brace but I'd llike to hear from others on Mike's quesiton since I don't want to fix one issue while creating another.
Thanks!

[Sir Adam]

PAC-if I recall correctly the buckle for the thigh straps are too far forward in that boat for the likes of me...I'd cut off the front of that perty little seat you've got and epoxy in a new anchor as close to the seat as possible. THAT will hold you in (and you'll find that although you don't THINK you can get out, as soon as you're upside-down you really can...). Check out the images under "outfitting" to the left (yup...finally fixed them! Don't ask about all the other updates...I'll just say I"m working on them, as there is A LOT of GREAT boat info folks have sent in over the past few months).

[Mike W.]

I made a new temporary back-rest & duct taped it in tonight. It was too cold to glue , so I now have duct tape . It's 1 1/8" further forward than the old one.

I will not have a chance to paddle untill the race Saturday so I hope it works ok. If not, I've put extra foam, a big knife & duct tape in the truck It's all in fun anyway & I know I'm going to get whipped in the race.

The only other time I tried slalom....well, let's just say that little girl knew what to do with a slalom boat I remember comenting to KNeal about how fast the kids were & he asked "what are you going to do about it?" My response..."I'm going to cheer them on!"

PAC, you don't want photos of my outfitting right now. I chopped 3" off the top of the little seat & replaced the top with one 9" wide. Then I added 3/4" to the top of that. Now I've duct taped a back-rest on. It's real ugly . I plan to completely redo the seat & backrest. I'm thinking about adding a bulkhead too. I haven't fallen out, but if I don't dig my heels into the deck sometimes I'll slip backwards while stern-squirting . Once I get it right I'll take pictures & post them.

Mike W.

[PAC]

Thanks guys....
Mike
I appreciate the fact that I'm not the only one that makes a mess out of exisitng outfitting. I look forward to seeing your set up once you get it squared away. I'm also impressed that your using the Viper as a Slalom boat - I'd love to hear how that goes (I'm thinking positive thoughts there)!
Adam - U da MAN!!!!
I sat in the "pleasure palace" last night (for others - if you saw the outfitting you would understand ) and said "dam why didn't I see that"! I spent the evening figuring things out on the Viper (instead of working on the Micro) and have a plan. I'm going to leave the "pleasure palace" in place (it feels "sooooo good" ) but will set up the strap mounting points back about an inch without issue (much tighter feel). I'm also going to add velco'ed in ankle blocks (for comfort and so I can escape if need be) and ....
Here is item I'd like more feedback on.... I'm thinking of attaching a kayak back band behind the pedestal. I have heard of others doing this so...
My though here is that I attach the mounting points under the deck with both mounting points close in to the center pillar but back away from the cockpit. The band straps then run up to above the pedestal with the band being under the skirt above the deck line at the small of the back?
Does this make sense - explaination of and pros & cons of doing this?
I have the band (left over Kayak krap) and the duct taped set up felt solid in the gargage. But should I drill the holes (weak'n the deck, possible leak point, etc)?
Thanks again all - just one minor "outfititng tweating suggestion" from the forum and I'm on a mission!

[Mike W.]

Pac, since you asked, here goes. I did the Natty Slalom this past weekend. Slalom is hard . My hat is off to folks that can do it well. The Viper seemed a little faster with the new back-rest. I was happy to finish 2nd in a field of 3 . I paddled the Big EZ-C-1 in the playboat class & did not place (hey, it's the slowest boat that I've ever been in). I paddled the Probe 11 in OC-1 & tied for 1st ! The coolest part was on my 1st run in the OC. I made gate 9 (upstream) & flipped on my peel-out (I forgot that I can't pivot-turn the OC). I then made my roll & cleaned gate 10

My wife got it all on video. My strokes & turns stink I now have something to look at & learn from.

Mike W.

[PAC]

I hear you on the Slalom! I don't know how they can do it!
I did the down river thing in '95 and them folks are hard core! Big lungs and sweet technique!
So you showed your stuff in C1 slalom & play AND OC1?!?!?! Your sounding pretty hard core yourself!
All on video in front of the family too!
Sounds like some video we have to have a look at.
I outfitted my Viper but didn't get to take it out this weekend. It's butt ugly but should work!
Sounds like KNeal is going to "Viper it" too! Maybe a Viper centric Armada coming up in the spring. It should be fun! You just can't show off hand paddling again!

[KNeal]

I'm really tickled that you slalomed just about every single-bladin' boat that you could get your hands on. By the way, you CAN pivot turn a Mohawk Viper. It's amazing how much those sharp chines can make a difference with turning. How has your outfitting come out in the Viper? Come on up to Richmond, or I can meet you on the Appomatox and we can check it out as we run some fun stuff.

Regarding me purchasing a Viper, yep. As soon as Brettal and I can finalize things, I just may have me a Viper. And yes, I would DEFINTELY bring it to the next Armada.

KNeal

[Mike W.]

Yeah, I paddled half of my boats out there this weekend . That really wore me out. It felt real good to get back to the hotel & hop into the hot tub

You would only want to see the video to learn what NOT to do in slalom I was embarassed to see that my paddling is that bad. While taping my last run of the day my wife comments (on the tape ) "somebody's tired". Yeah, it showed .

Next armada I'm wearing my pogies & maybe even getting a paddle leash . Maybe then I can keep my paddle near me .

Maybe next week I'll get a chance to work on outfitting. I think I know what I want. I just need to do it.

Mike W.

[sbroam]

Pivot turn an open boat? I never called it that, because you don't sink the stern and if you try it with a stern pry it can hurt! But carve a turn with the outside rail? Yep - it can be pretty dynamic!

Ever read the Freestyle Canoeing book by Glaros (?)? There are some challenging flatwater moves that involve outside leans (and bow "wedges" and "jams") that will put you in the water as fast as any whitewater moves. Good stuff to play around with - it can add some adrenaline to knocking around on a pond in a 16' open boat...

[PAC]

Here is my "new" Viper's updated outfitting. You'll notice I left the "place of pleasure" with the strap points moved back about 2 inches. All while updating with a back band. I hope it works out. I'll let you know!
http://www.geocities.com/paulcline2002/118_1817

[Mike W.]

PAC, I couldn't open your page.

I paddled the Viper yesterday on the Appomattox. It's not nearly as edgy since I moved forward . It is much harder to stern-squirt now though . I think the "permanent" backrest will be back where it was when I bought it. Then if I want to run bigger stuff I'll do something that will let me scoot forward temprorarily.

Mike W.