Wanted: River rating source

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:39 pm

Phil
CAN I COME PLay with you guys

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:49 pm

Cumnock, you say rapids "have come a long way"? How is that?

Cumnock · Post by **Cumnock** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:52 pm

have come a long way

the technique , gear etc

Bruce Farrenkopf · Post by **Bruce Farrenkopf** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:41 am

AW ratings are antiquated in my 2 cent opinion...rapids and gear have come a long way

I think you should "compare" rapids to others using baselines

here is our rating system for the WaldensRidgeWhiteWater site using baselines.

http://www.waldensridgewhitewater.com/c ... tion1.html

The rating system is broken. It is sliding downhill. Unlike the Climbing Rating Systems where difficulty ratings are relatively fixed and seldom changed, rivers are being continuosly downgraded. Any boater with more than 10 years experience has seen his favorite rivers sliding torward lower levels of difficulty. The rivers haven't gotten any easier over the years but perceptions and opinions of difficulty have changed. We need something less subjective or at least a little more stable

.

Carol · Post by **Carol** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:47 am

Interesting question.

How about Blossom Bar on the Rogue River. Have only done the permitted section once, at 2900 CFS at Grants Pass. At that flow in a Dagger Dimension, we felt pushed to our limit. I would call it a class IV
drop.

Or, the Chutes on the Middle Fork of the Salmon. We've done the MF three times, all below 2 feet. We've run it twice, and walked once. When we walked, we were doing it as self-contained trip, so probably had 100 pounds of gear in the boat. On that trip, we also walk to Tappan falls. Both of those rapids, I would probably rate at 3 -- 3+

The Trinity River is where I\we have the most experience. Have also spent a lot of time on the Klamath River, Happy Camp area. Used to do a yearly trip to the South fork of American, and up to Oregon for the McKinsey and Umpqua rivers. And Idaho lots doing the Payette, Middle Fork, Main and lower Salmon rivers.

I feel that information I get from books is really just a guideline. For the Idaho rivers, I found the talking to the River Rangers, off-season, is the best source of information. And of course talking to other boaters who are also familiar with the rivers in my backyard never hurts.

craig · Post by **craig** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:00 pm

I am all for adding a decimal system to the current river ratings. It may eliminate the tendency to downgrade rapids. Maybe also a "big water/ creek after. e.g 4.3 creek or 3.2 big water might give those unfamiliar with the run a better idea what to expect. I tend to use Gonzo's system myself

cadster · Post by **cadster** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:50 pm

The following runs have stood the test of time as far as being class IV:

Chattooga, Sect. IV, GA
Gauley, Upper, WV
Youghiogheny, Upper, MD
Arkansas, Numbers, CO
SF Salmon, Canyon, ID
Illinois, OR

I’m being a lumper and not a splitter. I’m not parsing the runs into individual rapids, but thinking of their overall character. These runs are not equal in difficulty, just safely doable by someone who’s mastered the same skill set.

cadster · Post by **cadster** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:05 pm

I posted this in another thread. It'd be a good reference for comparing regions.

See http://www.brushymountainpublishing.com ... guide.html

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:04 pm

Phil,

I'd go that far to paddle just to watch Louie & LB chase each other around in each others' boats!

And of course to get a taste of some eastern rivers and the different, ledgy geography over there - looks like fun (the ALF shots I've seen, not the scary video you posted - I want no part of that class of paddling! I'm several notches below anything that resembles that, whether it's big, small, warm, cold, east or west!)!

Pat.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:14 pm

yeah ... Well I was just yanking your chain a bit, I'd like it a couple or three notches down - from that video? Until getting that cboat at least.

Bruce Farrenkopf · Post by **Bruce Farrenkopf** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:48 am

The following runs have stood the test of time as far as being class IV:

Chattooga, Sect. IV, GA
Gauley, Upper, WV
Youghiogheny, Upper, MD
Arkansas, Numbers, CO
SF Salmon, Canyon, ID
Illinois, OR

How much time are you talking about?

It could be argued, even now, that some of the rivers you mentioned are lower level Class V.

River ratings can be improved by taking two steps. 1) We all need to have a little more respect for earlier ratings (made before we started boating). 2) A progressive scale should be adopted - something similar to the Yosemite Decimal System used in climbing. This has been proposed in the past, unfortunately was not generally accepted, and is needed now more than ever. Class 5 ratings might be expressed as 5.0, 5.1, 5.2 ..... and would be open ended. An open ended scale would allow Class V to grow in difficulty without compressing the scale downward.

These steps would tend to enhance the stability and meaning of our river difficulty rating system. If we don't modify the system you can expect your familiar Class 4 and 5 rivers to be continually downgraded. The novice boater will stand and increasingly greater chance of getting into serious trouble

.

SYOTR,

Bruce

cadster · Post by **cadster** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:15 pm

I thought I’d get a response like yours as far as bumping class V.

The time I’m talking about is at least 20 years of memory. I picked runs that I have done with a consistent character across the country. I’m a class IV boater and I felt safe doing those runs.

I can’t help with a class V system. For me, the only understandable guide is a rapid ladder.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:03 pm

Yarnell

In the past every morning durin ALF we have have five or six groups goin to five or six different river with five or six different level of difficulities. Just don't end up in the group Dooley, Matt, Shirver is in and you will be fine. I will tell you that a lof of people come down with the ideal of not doin say anything harder that class III and the next thing you know they look at the size and skill level of some group doin class IV and the next thing you know you end up doin stuff harder than you though you could. We are also a lot more supportive on the river than we are on here.