Kayak to C1?

[PaulD]

I tried posting this in the "Just Starting Out" forum, but didn't get much response, so I'll try again here...

I'm a longtime kayaker interested in trying C1 for some variety. My goal is to make the easier runs and early/late season boating a little more interesting.

I currently paddle about 30 days a year (limited season here in Colorado), class IV/IV+.

Some questions...particularly looking for feedback from other paddlers who've made the switch:

If I manage to get a good roll in the pool and practice some strokes, how far back will the C1 knock me? Will I be back on class II for a season, or is it reasonable to expect that's I'll be running IIIs and maybe familiar IVs?

Are there many switch paddlers out there, or are there reasons not to boat both ways? (I can't see myself quitting kayaking.)

What kind of boat should I look for? I'm debating between getting a C1 playboat and a C1 river runner. I've never been fan of river runners for kayaking...I paddle a playboat most of the time and switch to a creeker for mild creeks. But are the advantages of river runners greater in C1?

Any C1'ers on the northern Front Range of Colorado (Fort Collins) that would be willing to let me try your boat?

Thanks!

[ezwater]

I paddled 15+ years in c-1 and OC-1 before I tried kayaking. I never got able to handle heavy water in a kayak the way I could in c-1, but I'm sure the reason is not enough kayaking time.

I think that proficiency in class 3 and above depends in part on command of cross strokes. Don't delay working on effective cross strokes in easy water.

I don't think there is much interference between the kayak roll and the c-1 roll. However I think the c-1 roll is a little harder to learn, because of the paddle mechanics. If your hips work good.....

You don't mention the k1 to c1 conversion issue, but what with the paucity of river running and play c-boats on the market, I assume you may be looking at conversion options. Using your kayaking experience, look at longer playboats and playful river runners that you know have a good, firm feel----- primary stability. Many have converted roly poly kayaks, only to find that, sitting higher, the whole assemblage feels fishy, like a rolling carp. Also check the cockpit of the conversion k-1 to see that you will be able to build in proper thigh bracing. Just thigh straps (in my opinion) isn't enough. It is best to have the tops of your thighs spread and forward enough that the cockpit edge, or padding attached to it, bears down on your thighs. Put a knee wedge in to support the inner sides of your knees.

Another option---- check with the Fort Collins and maybe the Durango slalom racing communities and see if someone has a recently designed slalom c-1 for sale. The hulls really aren't fragile, and slalom c-1s are NOT harder to paddle in class 1-2-3 than other c-1s. Your learning curve will be steep. I bought a slalom boat from one of the Olympic guys in '76, and it was pure joy until I could no longer wedge my knees in it. If you go to the Search Boats and look at the Dagger Zealot, you will see my famous avatar, "Looks Slow Even Sitting Still."

Write if you get off work.

[Larry Horne]

not too many kayakers switch to c1 for creeking, because it's just too hard for you guys.
but i do know a few that mess around with a c1 for playboating.

[Paddler]

I also use C1-ing to add challenge to familliar runs and low water/end of season runs. I started out in a perception 3D that I converted and it was really hard to learn in, the slicey stern flipped me more than it was worth, and the waves I did surf put me on my face too much. I recently started open boating and I felt that was much more forgiving, plus if you fish it makes for a good class II-III fishing day.

I started out easy on a class II-III section that I raft guided on and found that I was pretty well gripped in that for awhile. I think the key stepping it up was being able to catch eddies on my off-side and being comfortable with the offside forward stroke.

As far as boats go I can't offer much advice because the only boats i've paddled are the 3D and a probe 12. But I understand that the remix is a good boat that you can surf on glassy waves but also performs really well. The one modern playboat that I've sat in in a pool was supper squirelly and was hard to get good at paddling in a straight line.

Hope this is insightful, and I'm glad you've broadened your horizons beyond monoboating.

[Paddler]

not too many kayakers switch to c1 for creeking, because it's just too hard for you guys.
but i do know a few that mess around with a c1 for playboating.

Joe Stumpfel is a kayaker and he also runs STEEP creeks in the C-1, saw him run spirit falls on the little white salmon, super cool. And no need to the kayak/canoe animosity, both are cool.

[Louie]

Sean Malone made the switch from buttboat to C1 and moved it up a notch. The fact that the desire is there say a lot about the paddler.

[markzak]

When I made the switch, assuming you have a solid roll in the pool, you won't be held back creeking for long at all, not even a season, if your skills can progress. You'll be surprised at your ability in a C1 to make the moves you want with precision b/c of the higher center of gravity and stronger single stroke.

You might be held back to class II-III for a few runs, but I think you'll quickly find yourself comfortable on cl IV within a season. CL IV+ and cl V runs, that will be determinate of your balls, skill progression, and willingness to leave some skin on your knuckles behind.

I know this might be controversial, but I recommend a good closed deck C1 before considering OC1ing your favorite cl IV and up. Your OC1 will take longer to master on cl II-III before stepping up to cl IV and beyond. You need be certain you can roll a bigger boat and deal with being half swamped through cl IV rapids in an OC1.

All good advice from others people on this post too.

[Larry Horne]

what animosity?
just a true statement with a little challenge thrown in for fun.

[PaulD]

Thanks guys.

"The one modern playboat that I've sat in in a pool was supper squirelly and was hard to get good at paddling in a straight line."

This confirms my concern that it might be harder to learn in a playboat with only half a paddle. Might be nice to have a boat that tracks a little.

[kiwic1chick]

I started out with a Q-kayaks Bandit (river runner.) I now use a Bliss-stick RAD 185, which I think would be a lot easier to learn to go straight in as once the Bandit started turning, it was very difficult to stop it. However, when I'm teaching, I always start people out in the Bandit as they learn to roll faster (it's really round.) And once you get the hang of steering it, you've got better skills than you would in a playboat.
Wouldn't recommend starting in a slalom boat though, they go straight easy but are hard to turn. I never managed to manoevre a slalom boat well until I mastered going dead straight in the Bandit.

[kneeler]

8 years ago, I switched to C1 after 12 seasons of kayaking. I had recently started a "real job" and was looking for a way to challenge myself on familiar runs as an alternative to kayaking progressively more difficult rivers.

I was quickly paddling class III and IV whitewater in the C1 but I definitely took a few knocks at first as I unlearned a few kayaking habits; the primary habit being my counting on a brace with the missing blade on my off-side.

For the first year or so, I favored my on-side but learned more and more to trust my cross strokes. I also, partly through observation and partly through trial-and-error, began picking up a lot of new skills: steering in any direction from either side, relying on edges and current to move the boat instead of using paddle strokes, using paddle strokes instead of braces for stability, learning to use low braces instead of high braces and learning to maximize the extra leverage I had. Many of the new skills I learned translated well back to the kayak so, to answer your question, it should make you a better kayaker.

It was my intention to C1 as a hobby but to keep K1 as my primary paddling activity. I ended up switched mostly over to C1. I've gone back to K1 a bit in recent years mainly for down-river racing but I am still primarily a C1 paddler.

Recently, I've begun creeking and running a bit of class V in the C1 but I question whether the C1 is the best tool for the job.

One thing that surprised me about C1 is that it is much less stressful on my back and shoulders. I attribute this to being able to use leverage instead of muscle and to the primary C1 brace being the low brace.

[Larry Horne]

kneeler- that's good to hear. most stories are the other way around.

[marclamenace]

kneeler- that's good to hear. most stories are the other way around.

You bet!

A bunch of tech tips and K to C differences you mentionned are pretty interesting too for anybody looking at switching.

I would guess the reason why you switched is a big part of why it was succesful:

...was looking for a way to challenge myself on familiar runs as an alternative to kayaking progressively more difficult rivers.

More fun and challenge on class 3-4 runs instead of pushing yourself constantly towards more heavy-duty stuff.

So basically are you looking at being a Jedi (http://vimeo.com/10007781)or a class III king (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3NEv9ZjBI4) ?

[kneeler]

More fun and challenge on class 3-4 runs instead of pushing yourself constantly towards more heavy-duty stuff.

Of course that plan backfired. Now I'm paddling harder and harder stuff with the C1 thinking how much easier the runs would be if I just stuck with the K1.

[Larry Horne]

yeah, but a cross deck boof with a kayak paddle is just plain silly.