General outfitting question for C-1

[chuck naill]

Weldwood works for attaching minicell. I would use the screws under the cockpit edge and a d ring configuration as previously mentioned. You can you a buckle or some other hardware to attach the thigh straps to the pedistal. I found that the double thighs were not very effective so I built a bulkhead as mentioned.

[River Rogue]

Hello all,

Thank you again for your posts and helpful information.

I have decided I want the Dagger saddle, but still have not made a firm decision on foam vs. straps. I think I would prefer just the foam, but only because I would buttume it would be easier to get out of. Can anyone give me some input on this?

Starting with the holes in front of the saddle and using the screws in the cockpit rim, I feel like the straps are only holding my knees apart and not so much down. If holding them apart is all they do, then I could probably use foam to force them apart & down and not fool with the straps at all.

Obviously this is going to be personally preference and I need to experiment with it some, I just wanted to get some feedback if there was more potential danger with one more so than the other.

Paddling with out any kind of thigh straps or foam around my knees this weekend was maddening to say the least, but it still was great to be on the water.

Thanks again for your help!

[sean]

Hey, I have a similar set up to the one you are creating. I have a dagger Id6.9 with the dagger pedestal. I used thigh straps last season, from mike yee, you can link to his stuff through www.bobfoote.com, however, this year I am going to go bulk head all the way. The thigh straps work great, it's just a pain to get them tight and I don't think you could punch out very easy either. It probably has to do with the boat more than the straps, there just isn't much room for thigh strap cinching and such.

[C-1 Duh!]

Thigh straps (or foam blocks, or aluminum "machines") are meant to provide resistance when you squeeze your knees/thighs together against them. It is your muscles that hold you tight to the boat using the straps.

The result is that thigh straps should not actually have to be unbuckled (released, de-velcro'd) to get quickly out of your boat. All you want to have to do to get out is to allow your thighs to "desqueeze" so you can slip back and out of the cockpit.

Think of your thigh straps as forming a snug cavity into which you insert each knee and part of a lower thigh. You want to be able to stay inside that cavity only by using the muscles of your lower body.

And, while the cavity does provide lateral support to help keep your legs spread wide (in conjunction with sculpted knee pads) it is by squeezing your legs together against the straps (using the inside and the top of each thigh) that you hold yourself tight to the hull of the boat.

Maybe modern play boaters have gone on to another level of "confinement" while paddling converted kayaks, but that is the old school approach.

Just be sure that you can easily wet exit from any outfit while upside down. A swimming pool is useful here. After a dozen trips or so, you can move the straps around to suit. At some point you might want to go to a foam block, or consider a lap belt. All of that is a personal choice, based on all sorts of physical and mental facets of the individual c-boater.

In general, get the seat positioned properly first (boat trimmed for your weight and using a forward leaning body position. Again, a swimming pool is useful for this. Next, get the knee pads in the right place, spreading your knees comfortably wide apart. Finally, position the thigh straps to form the snug cavity.

Better read the Walbridge outfitting book. He talks about all these things there (as I recall.) Not only is he a very experienced C-boater, he is very familiar with safety issues.

So, is the strap safer than a foam block? No one really knows. There are very few c-boaters that have found either method to be less safe...and that are still around to tell us about it.

[River Rogue]

Thanks for the informative post.
I completely agree about our muscles actually providing the resistance in the straps. In fact, it is that very reason that I am so concerned with feeling connected with my boat and why I may be coming across as a little too anal about my outfitting. In my OC-1, I pushed off the balls of my feet and into my doubles to provide a solid connection with my boat. I could release that tension at anytime and the straps would loosen.
I was surprised to find that in C-boating, most people don’t use the balls of their feet and instead lay their feet flat against the hull. This confused me since this is where I got most of my tension from in the straps. In fact, I initially tried to find a boat that was deep enough and had a wide enough cockpit to allow me to do this, but was not pleased with the results. I was reassured by some that other blocks of foam, i.e. hip pads, knee pads, ankle pads and straps would provide this feeling of connectedness. Maybe it is purely ignorance or inexperience but I still am having trouble imagining feeling that connected without pushing my toes against something, especially if the boat was vertical.
Basically I want to be as tightly connected in my boat as possible without heightening my entrapment risks. I like my friends too much to ruin their day by my sloppy outfitting. Please forgive me if this comes across more harsh than it is intended, but are you suggesting that the only way I can do that is by alternating my inner/outer thigh muscles against the foam/straps according to demand?

[Mike W.]

This is just my oppinion. If you're not gong to use straps, why spend the $ for the Dagger saddle ? The major advantage of it is the center attachment point for the thigh straps. You still have to buy foam (admittedly not quite as much as w/o the Dagger piece) to make your seat & knee pads. I would think that if you're going to make a bulkhead & go strapless you'd be just as well off without the Dagger piece. You could use the team etc, or fence-post set-ups to allow some adjustment fore & aft.

I have the Dagger set up in my Cascade. Even when I drilled additional holes to move the thigh-straps closer to my crotch, I never had to mess with the straps to get out.

My Viper has straps that I never adjust.

I converted my big ez with the team etc system & never had to mess with my straps. I later took the straps out & made a bulkhead which keeps my knees from moving like my straps did. I'm considering either 1-putting the straps back in along with the bulkhead, or 2-making the bulkhead come higher up my thighs to help keep my butt down.

Of my 3 boats, the bulkhead in the big ez keeps my knees planted best. Thigh-straps high on my thigh in the Cascade keep my butt planted best. Tall backrests keep me from sliding backwards when I roll.

Whatever you do, make it safe first. Second, make it comfortable. The first time that you get it on the water be sure to have a freind standing in the water to assist while you wet exit. I like not having to mess with stuff to get out of my boats. If I have made the decision to swim, I'm already out of air & energy & have probably banged myself up some too . I don't need to fiddle with buckles or clips before I get air, my brain doesn't work that well upside down

Mike W.

[River Rogue]

I am starting to rethink the new Dagger saddle simply because I think I am going to have to cement it to the bottom of the boat instead of screw it into the sides like the one I borrowed allows me to do.

I truly appreciate everyone's input and support. I am really impressed by the patience and class that everyone seems to have on this site.

[sbroam]

But of course we are classy and patient, we are c-boaters.

<lee ermey drill instructor voice>
NOW FINISH THAT DAGGUM BOAT UP AND GET IT IN THE WATER! I WANT TO SEE SOME SURFING DOUBLE TIME! I"VE SEEN MY GRANNY THROW CARTWHEELS BETTER THAN THAT! HUT HUT HUT!
</lee ermey drill instructor voice*>



Carry on. As you were.

Scott

[chuck naill]

Mr. River Rogue,
Use both staps and bulkhead. Only 4 or 5 inches of my knees are in my bulkhead. This keeps them down and spread. THe straps as was previously said keeps your but down.

The Dagger Pedital comes with attachment peices on the front that can be attached to the boat. You can add foam to the center walls to make the pedistal fit snug. I am not sure you could glue these peditals in


Biggest issue I have had with my GTX is stabilty in bigger water with strong undercurrents. I have learned that the boat needs to be as light as possible and the correct size for my weight so that it is not riding too low in the water. So take as much weight out as possible. If the boat has the foam foot braces used in kayaking, take those out if possible. Make sure your butt is bow forward. My seat is 9 " from inside edge of cockpit rim. I am still experimenting. THese smaller designs demand more attention to outfitting and expermenation I am learning

Chuck/Tennessee

[River Rogue]

Hello all!

Update….I bought the Dagger C1 conversion saddle because I knew I would need straps after falling out several times when I tried to roll. Here is the link to the saddle: http://www.kayakoutfitting.com/seat/daggerseat.html

Now, what to do with that plastic strip they have so graciously screwed in across the front with 4 screws? First of all, I put some minicell under each screw to keep from grinding holes in my precious boat. Speaking of which, there are already two spots that are worn down from a previous saddle, is there anything I can do to reinforce those?

Also, any suggestions as to thigh brace anchors? I was hoping to get some ideas. I will screw D-rings under the cockpit rim for the top anchor, but not sure how to go about the bottom one.

Thanks again for everyone’s help!

[chuck naill]

the plastic strap can be cut in the middle to spread out if needed. I added foam to protect the bottom, but I can't imagine that there is anything to worry about from previous worn areas. If you paddle much the boat should be worn out from the bottom before that would be a concern.

By come d rings that have a thick center. Cut the center out and drill a hole in center on that thick area. Purchase some stainless washers and other hardware and attach to the pedistal.

[River Rogue]

Doh! Not sure why I did not think of that before. Must be all those fumes!

Thanks!

[chuck naill]

Mr Rogue,

I have been tweeking a conversion I made this Fall. Leave some room for adjustments. I had to go back and move the seating position forward and take out some kayak metal/foam hardware. I am finding that your knees need to as wide as possible and a bow forward position is better in bigger water. I am 175-180 plus equipment which puts me about 30 lbs from the upper limits of the Dagger GTX or 8.1 .

I have had it out once and beng more forward seems to be a plus. I can reach around the bow. I also got a smaller, NRS waist throw bag. I should be floating higher and more level. I also moved the knees via a bulkhead that I constructed of minicell.

Chuck

[ezwater]

Mr. Rogue....

One reason some of us hyper-pronate our ankles in c-boats, rather than using foot blocks, is that some of us are 6' 5" with size 14-15 feet. So our feet have to lay flat. Even if there were enough room for us to get up on our toes, the result would be increased flexion at the knees, which already are flexed a lot.

Once accustomed to this situation, I kneel on the tops of my feet in my open boats also. The outfitting can be adjusted so that I will not slide forward or back if the boat gets vertical.

[chuck naill]

Mr G2D,
What do you paddle? I am curious because I got some great feedback from the designer of the Wave Sport EZ recently. He was saying that smaller shorter paddlers look more stable because they would be stable because boats are short and about 24 inches wide and that larger paddlers need wider, larger boats to compensate for sticking out of the boat more and weighing more, since weight of course means beiing lower in the water. Having a wider boat with less weight seems to be the only solution. It seems that regardless of what boat we would like to convert, we must match our size with the best design available or we are not going to have fun.

I was also wondering if you have trouble when it come to bigger water with reactionary currents and does your boat do some stern squirting as a result.