Cross forward stroke

[xmas0c1c1k1]

Power and Speed X Forward
-full extension of your arms
-lean forward more to start the stroke
-don't rely on just arms use back muscles hips push forward
-finish around knees/shins (this allows for ample time for a full stroke if you start the stroke far enough forward, which looks to be an issue in your video)
-get the blade all the way in the water (seems like you are doing a lot of splashing with your paddle remember quiet paddle)
-you need to work on your posture i.e. roll hips forward make kind of an s with your back kind of sticking your belly out ( i struggle with this one)

Potential problem with that stroke that I can see is getting stuck with the paddle to far back with the paddle on your offside leaving you pretty ineffective for the next move although it may feel more natural for you than others your arms are still kind of twisted around. The good thing about an in water recovery with power face facing the boat is that as you slice forward you can change blade angle to make subtle corrections for your next stroke.

If you have found a spot for that stroke in your boating that's fine but I don't see many times it would be to useful. I would continue to work on the strokes you see Bob doing cause you could always use more strokes

Which of the strokes do you find to be awkward and ineffective for you? The xbow sweep, the in water recovery, the x bow draw

You continue to talk about speed and power try to work on paddling with less corrections relying more on lean carving etc. So the J stroke is less speed robbing than other correction stroke but it is still speed robbing. Speed in whitewater is kind of a relative term really in most whitewater boats it only takes a couple of strokes to get moving faster than the water. I think its comes more down to being able to effectively maintain speed.

you explained earlier when you might use this stroke but i got lost in the wording try to explain it again and maybe people can give some other options that you may try and find to work better for you.

Any ways as long as your having fun that's all that really matters

[Larry Horne]

...show me a cross stroke that accels the boat that quickly, from a stand still - that way I have another option.

You've been shown four video examples, but you think you know more than the worlds top paddlers about power and speed.
I won't bother in going further.

[FullGnarlzOC]

Larry - If I didn't take advice from people, I wouldn't be where I'm at. It's a relatively easy sport in comparison to others, but if you listen to what people say, you can pick up on things much quicker - which is why I post in the first place. I know how I can come off, though.

xmas - I have fun as long as I continue to get better. I'm never content with where I am at, in any sport, always have that drive to be the best I can be. That's the fun part for me. And in WW Canoeing, when you get better, you don't play harder opponents, you get to paddle harder/more exciting rivers - which equals more paddling options.

As for times that I use the stroke in question - Off-side ferrys, Paddling against the Grain of a heavy current, with onside upstream. And hitting hard to make ferrys on my left side(i'm left handed).

I'm fortunate enough to have a big flat river a block from my apartment, so I'm going to keep getting out and practicing. I'd like to get it to where I feel comfortable paddling with the CF/Duffex, so I at least have that in my bag of tricks. Also going to work on making it habit to do all work in the front zone of the boat. Lean more forward.

[xmas0c1c1k1]

I say work on keeping it forward is a good idea but rudder strokes do have their place.

I guess I'm having a hard time imagining why you would need this stroke. I can understand the use of a offside pry or j with power to really turn the boat for example a cut back when surfing or something.

I am not saying its right or wrong but take for example an offside ferry so obviously every spot is different but this is what i think of as far as strokes to use firs get your speed in the eddy while setting your angle (maybe you could use this stroke for a quick angle correction coming before exiting) so I like to come out of the eddy cranking offside forwards if everything goes perfect you can just use xforwards the whole way with no correction. If your bow starts to get swept to far down then a cross sweep works to correct this but the hard thing for ME is if that big cross sweep doesn't do the job your kind of in a hard position to recover from, but usually a planning will prevent this. So that is what happens if your are working offside to keep a closed angle so your J stoke would be pushing the bow to open up more I think that either just laying of the power a bit and letting the bow drift or a X bow draw thrown into the in water recovery will help open up the angle.
I dunno if that makes any sense, but that's just my thinking I'm not saying that there is no place for a XJ but it just doesn't seem like it would be to effective in whitewater anyways I look at the J stroke as a correction to prevent switching hands and the Xforward a way to eliminate the need for a J stroke (although an onside J is still good at times because it allows you to stay on your ONside)
Anyways keep up the work I'm sure you will find what works if I was you just experiment with what you can do with the power face in towards the boat just turn your torso as much as you can so you are facing where you are working
Have you tried doing a offside sideslip with feathering on your offside that gives you a good feel of what blade angle does to the boat

[philcanoe]

That's what trying new strokes is all about....

... you find what works for you. It's not about one way being better than another. As has been said throughout this thread (by most everyone) - the trick is in finding the best stroke for each situation. It's not about us all trying to paddle like each other. For me I find it better to lay off J-strokes, using as few as possible (limiting them) as a general rule. My feeling is you are giving away some of your power with each little 'Jay'. I prefer to use my leans, edges, and other strokes to accomplish the same thing. Like Bob said somewhere in this thread... I usually go to a offside forward stroke to avoid doing a onside power/speed robbing correction phase. So consequently when wanting power/speed (your request) I find it better to do the beginning part of a small c-stroke (without that last-ending part). Doing these either with the curl coming from the right or left (still talking offside stroke). A additional benefit being it allows you to see what you're up to.... instead of that glancing off to the side.

As for that pry question, that's completely at odds with your power and speed request.

I commend you for thinking about what you are doing, even considering outside the box. However there is a reason so many good boaters, have a sort of similar method or technique. A lot of which is learning and mastering all the phases of a good stroke. Which several different sources have been listed, as well as on the technique section of this web-site. There are years of advice just there for the taking.... once you master (if anyone ever does) these basics, you'll be far and away better off. Before I say what I'm going to... Lord knows I could use some more work on my strokes... but at this stage you might get way better results by developing more torso rotation, a ketch phase, weight transfer, using way less arm, pulling boat to the paddle (not dragging through the water)... and so on.. you know the basics. It happens to me every time I see myself on video, I go oooh.... that could be better.

It's not that you'll be doing the very same stroke, as someone else would in that situation. You'll be doing a different series that works for you, but in a rather similar manner (most likely).

[yarnellboat]

The good thing about an in water recovery with power face facing the boat is that as you slice forward you can change blade angle to make subtle corrections for your next stroke.

This is a subtlty that is worth highlighting! Gentle uses of your power face during offside recovery can be pretty important, and you give that up for a XJ. That's why I have a strong preference for rotating my top thumb forward (aside from the physical twisting of wrists), but I couldn't put my finger on it until I read that!

The more I think of it, the XJ is like a double negative - trying to add that correction to a correction stroke is making things unnecessarily complicated.

Thanks for making me think about it.

Pat.

[jakke]

Like I said, I messed around with the stroke that Bob was using in that video - wasn't workin for me. I know that's the stroke that most people use. But it doesnt work for me. I found one that works, and was curious, as to if anyone else uses it. Just because something has been done for decades a certain way, doesn't make it the only way.

That's like an old school tennis player saying "its all about serve and volley" - as that's how it was done in the old days. As opposed to ripping it down by saying it's "goofy" - it would be more helpful, if you'd point out potentional problems I might run into. I only know so much as of this point(which is why I'm here in the first place - to learn).

And LARRY - It's not about doing it my 'own way', it's about doing what's comfortable for me, and what makes the boat go foward the fastest. Like I said before, POWER AND SPEEEEEEED. I'll use whatever gets me the most of it.....'weak stroke' my arsee...show me a cross stroke that accels the boat that quickly, from a stand still - that way I have another option.

Hi Eddy,

Some well meant advice from my side.
What I noticed on your XJ footage:
- it's all arms, quite logic you don't get power, use that powerfull torso!
- you make kind of an offside-C stroke: You start with a mix: X-draw + X-forward, then transfer it to X-forward to conclude with that funny X-J. So basically you pull your boat offside with the X-draw, then you put power, then you puss your boat onside, the other direction of the start of your stroke! (and yes, I also do have some remainers of X-draw in my X-forward left, that's why I recognise it)
- like it has been said: you don't work in front of your boat.

I think I suggested you flatwater drills before. Like it or not, but that's the place to improve your technique. I'm not going to repeat it, but I wrote some things about it
http://open-canoe.be/index.php?option=c ... &Itemid=25

There are some really good instruction videos around (I personally like the Kent Ford videos the best). Watch them and learn, compare with your own paddling.
And formal instruction of a good instructor who really knows what he/she is doing is worth its money. You might want to consider that. (even a flatwater course, to improve your technique is worth it, you can always learn, it's only the level of detail that changes. All you need is an instructor that can handle the level of detail that YOU need)

Happy paddling

[kaz]

This is getting to be like the L'edge topic. Can we close this already? What about adhesives?

[ncdavid]

L'Edge? Didn't it debut back in March at ALF? Along with Mohawk's PE Maxim?

[dafriend]

Gnarlz,

You want a challenge? One that will demonstrate your ability to produce powerful efficient strokes? Then figure out how to do that "round trip" circuit in your You Tube video with the fewest possible strokes. I counted 16 strokes in your video. Can you cut that number by half? Maybe more? Do that and nobody is going to give you grief about some goofy stroke you made up.

We of course will need video proof

Dave

[Paddle Power]

I think I suggested you flatwater drills before. Like it or not, but that's the place to improve your technique. I'm not going to repeat it, but I wrote some things about it
http://open-canoe.be/index.php?option=c ... &Itemid=25

An excellent site, check out all the other information. Hats off to the site open-canoe.

[FullGnarlzOC]

With the dry season starting, it's going to be a lot of flat water practice... The hard thing for me, is always paddling with good technique. It's real easy to get lazy in the boogie water. I guess that's why I always try and have the next move planned out. If you always putting sequences of moves together, and not really doing the long easy lines - often you need that technique to get you where you are going.

The bottom line for the xDeck J for me is that I really love the recovery. That "snap" is more of a recovery than a 'correction', although that split second of catching the water with the outside corner of the blade, does correct a tad bit, just enough to give you a pretty straight acceleration. But its the recovery that's nice. The snap, really propells the blade out of the water, and almost back to the front of the boat. I do beleive these are more powerful than a 12incher, with a duffex like recovery. But as Pat pointed out, with the xJ, I loose the ability to make subtle sideslip changes, as well as subtle bow direction changes. I do, however gain the ability, to do a xDeck Low brace type deal, If I can find a way to do it without exposing the shoulder to much. - this isn't much of a gain, because it's not an effective move, but perhaps it can be adapted.

xMas - I do use a xDraw sideslip, that skull/draw feels comfortable, but not when I get out in front of the boat. Not yet at least.

I know it's all about torso, hips, and back... I've done all the reading and watching(Class V arm Chair paddler)... It's just putting everything into play, and consistently doing it, not just when its needed. I suppose I could check out the c1 technique under the site here again, and really try and break it down...but I feel like i've done this before... over and over again - standing with my laptop/paddle in the garage for wee hours of the night until someone accuses of me 'having a problem'.

Again - Practice like you play. I can see where this is going, and I need to start Drilling. Over and over, and really need to start making my runs last, more so than I already do. This is probably the best way to firm out the technique I'm guessing.

Thanks for all the advice guys - there's nothing than I'd rather talk about than canoeing.

[agmazzuckelli]

I've been in a coaching session with the Olympic gold medalist Joe Jacobi. One of the major things that he wanted us to wrap our heads around was letting the water do the work. If you try and power through moving water you'll proceed to waste energy and place more and more ineffective strokes. Canoeing may be an easy sport to participate in, but it is not an easy sport to master and without learning how to place effective strokes and working with the water, paddling will continue to be a flip and roll sport for you. On the side of the stroke itself... It just looks absolutely goofy and for the focus you're undoubtedly going to put on it while paddling it might be to your better interest to use more common, extremely effective strokes.

[Longboatin]

Bwaahahahahahahahahahahahhaha...kaz u da man hoss, best comment on here in a sight, what about ahesives? hahahahaha...

kudos mazzie for the well applied smack up

[yarnellboat]

Full,

I've tried your offside j.

Are you still using it and finding it to be comfortable, useful, practical, advantageous, etc. Or is it something you're giving up on on the river?

Pat.