Hello and question about a Dagger Encore

[jmdriscoll]

Hello, my name is Mike and I'm new to Cboats.net. I have been whitewater butt-boating for a couple of years now and consider myself very new to canoeing with the exception of paddling my MR explorer a few years back with no inclination as to what I was doing.

So anyway, after selling the Explorer I have since seen some of the styling that single bladers do hopping in and out of micro eddies with grace and finesse and quite frankly, it has sparked some interest. About 4-5 months ago I unknowingly bought a stolen Mohawk XL13 for a "steal" so to speak on craigslist. Slightly concerned after the fact, I put a post on my local VA paddling forum and found out that it was indeed stolen. Long and short story is that I have been storing this boat in my garage until the guy could come by and pick it up. Recently I delivered it to him, and in return he offered me a weathered Dagger Encore but with a solid hull for free. I couldn't resist, I have the extra space, so I took it off his hands.

About the Encore:

To start, It is Pink! Real men paddle pink boats right? Although it needs some serious cleaning, after an initial power washing I have found no cracks, soft spots, delamination etc.. The hull is stiff, thick and just seems the good old fashioned royalex that takes lickins and keeps on tickin. It came with a foam saddle installed, knee cups, foam toe clips and d-rings for thigh braces. The only real concern that I have is the Gunwales and thwarts have a couple of rotten spots in them. So I have called App river Co, and found that they keep a stock of wood, aluminum and vinyl gunwales. Vinyl seems to be the cheapest and easiest to install, so I was thinking about going with them. Other than replacing the gunwales, I was just going to add air bags, new lacing, grab loops and maybe do something with the hulls exterior. With that said, i have a couple of questions:

1) From the few reviews that I have found, the Encore seems to be one of daggers better whitewater boats from back in the day. I would like to do the repairs and use it as a starter boat to learn some single-blade strokes and manuvers; Most likely on class II runs till I get a feel for it. This is probably more a personal question, but is it worth doing this work and spending a couple hundred bucks to restore life back into it?

2) How hard would it be to change the color?? I have read that the best thing to use is just some decent spray paint geared for painting plastics. this is assuming that you are going to paint the original color, "Pink!" I also read where some people have used 2-part epoxy marine paint. this would seem to be a better alternative if I decide to do a complete color change. I was just thinking of doing some type of hybrid pink/cammo/skull and cross-bones combo paint job. Anybody have any recommendations on this? I'm feel pretty secure in my man-hood, but I just don't know about that dam pink.. hmmm..

Anyway, sorry for the long winded post. "I work nights and have a bit of time on my hands" Any thoughts, recommendations, considerations, or general pokes would be appreciated.

-Mike

[Todhunter]

Mike, welcome to the forum, and congrats on thinking of getting rid of that training blade!

The Encore is a fantastic boat, especially for beginners. My first boat was a pink Encore, and I learned a lot in it and loved it.

Yes, the boat is worth doing all the work to - especially if the hull is solid. I would personally put wood gunwales back on the boat and treat them with Watco. Wood gunwales are better all around.

Don't change the color! Real men do paddle pink boats! The pink Encores are kind of rare, especially if they aren't faded too bad from UV (they will almost look white). Plus, I don't know of a lasting coating you could do to change the color that wouldn't add a ton of weight, and the Encore is already a heavy boat.

[Larry Horne]

I am very impressed that you checked to see if that xl13 was stolen and returned it to the owner. Good work!

[econpaddler]

You are to commended for checking to see if the boat was stolen and returning it to its rightful owner.

You may have ended up with a better boat than you originally bought. I, too, started in a pink Encore (actually, it's "fuschia" but it turns pink). DO NOT paint the boat!

Wood gunnels are better.

My advice is to fix this boat, learn to paddle with it, and then upgrade in a year or two -- you can keep this boat or sell it, there is always someone looking for a used Encore.

[pblanc]

Thwarts are cheap and simple to replace. Wood gunwales are harder to repair but unless the gunwales are extensively rotted, I would look at replacing the bad sections by splicing in new pieces of ash using scarf or step joints to connect to the sound portions of the old gunwales.

I have used a 2-part resorcinal glue made by DAP that works well for durable wood joints in exterior applications: http://www.castlewholesalers.com/DAP-WE ... e-Pt-.html

Note that this goes by the name "Weldwood" like DAP's very popular flammable contact cement, that we all know and love, but is much different. It works sort of like a 2 part epoxy but the catalyst is a powder that is added to the liquid resin and stirred in. West Systems also claims that their G-Flex epoxy works well for waterproof wood joints, but I haven't put it to the test.

Although long (20') pieces of straight grain ash are getting harder and harder to find, shorter segments shouldn't be a problem.

If you replace the wood gunwales with aluminum you will almost certainly find that the existing screw holes in the hull will not line up with the rivet holes in the new gunwales. Also, those long aluminum gunwales are very expensive to ship unless you can go pick them up. You may be able to have them shipped to a regional boat dealer when that dealer is receiving canoes, but you will have to find a dealer and wait.

The Encore is a great boat for your purposes! In fact, there are a number of us here (generally considered to be "past it") that think that the Encore is a great OC-1, period.

Dagger called that color Fuschia but the flower growers I knew disagreed even before it faded. In my circles, it was generally referred to as "Pepto-Pink". And you shouldn't paint it for three reasons: 1. It will add unnecessary weight 2. Any paint you apply will quickly scratch off the hull bottom and it will look like crap 3. All of the "pink" Encore owners, such as myself, will hunt you down, lay for you, and cut off your ears.

[jmdriscoll]

Thanks for the warm welcome and responses guys. Hey, i've had crap stolen from me, and know how it feels. Plus, it's good karma to do the right thing. Ok, so maybe I'll leave it pink. I was paddling today at a local play spot and ran across a guy in a pink bliss-stick, so I don't feel so bad..

In regard to the Gunwales and availability, we luckily have a really good boat shop here in VA (Appomattox River Company), and they actually stock ash and vinyl gunwales. They want a bit more than I would like to pay for the ash, so I may look around a bit at some local cabinet shops to see what they want for ash strips. As far as the Vinyl gunwales go, I can regunwale the boat $80 through them, so I am seriously considering going that route. I will do a light sanding on the existing gunwales and thwarts just to see where they stand to determine where I need to go if I decide to just repair the existing stuff.

I have uploaded a couple of "before" pics to my webshots account of the boat. The vinyl outer layer does have UV wear, but the boat is stiff and doesn't seem to have any structural issues. I am thinking that maybe I will put a little elbow grease into it and give it a GOOD cleaning to see where I stand and go from there. If needed, I might re-coat with some pink plastics spray paint to give some UV protection. Here's a link with pictures of the boat as it stands:

"The album preview isn't working on my PC, but pics come up if you click on the thumbnails"

http://sports.webshots.com/album/578319831oRXnfV

-Mike

[pblanc]

It's got a sticker on it from the Outdoor Center of New England (OCNE) which was Tom Foster's old paddling school in Miller's Falls, MA.

It may just be the photo, but it looks as if there might be a split in the Royalex of the hull at the place near the stem where the gunwale has rotten and ceased to support the hull. If so, it can be repaired when you do the gunwale work.

You might want to get some West System G-Flex epoxy to fill that crack, if it exists, and to fill any existing gunwale screw holes that won't be used if you replace the wood gunwales with aluminum, which I'm betting will be all of them.

You will want to install some thigh straps for WW use. You can glue in your vinyl D-ring patches with either G-Flex or Vynabond adhesive.

Krylon Fusion spray paint sticks better to vinyl than other brands. They do make it in pink. although it will almost certainly be a somewhat lighter shade than your boat, unless the boat is very faded. Looks like it should be a good boat when you are done with it.

[jmdriscoll]

Actually that air space between the gunnel and hull creates an optical illusion, but it's just the picture. Additionally, the last person to seal the gunwales was a little sloppy and some drips formed as you could probably see in the pics. The d-rings for the thigh straps are actually already installed although hard to see in the pics. It's a little rough, but I hope to be able to do something with it. It may take a little while to get it all together, but I am eager and will post some pics of the finished product once there.

Oh yeah, one more question.. As far as air bags go, I am slightly biased against the new style thin vinyl air bags.. "harmony specifically" It seems like the slightest bit of sand/pebble accumulation under the bags is enough to puncture them as I have found out with my harmony kayak bags. Seems that the NRS bags are a little thicker and have held up better over time so far. The old style dagger bags seemed a lot better as they had a cloth like outer and vinyl inner. Any reccomendations on a good manufaturer of economical yet dependable airbags that I can outfit with? My local boat shop has good things to say about the Esquif bags. Although a bit pricey, I am currently considering them unless I find something else.

-Mike

[mr ray]

Oh yeah, one more question.. As far as air bags go...

The only bags I've had that never leaked were the old Dagger bags that you described. I've had Harmony, Gaia, NRS, Voyageur, other no-names...they all leaked eventually.

After getting tired of searching for leaks in all my airbags I just decided to go with the NRS lifetime ones. I got 2. Within a couple weeks one had a significant leak. I sent it back on my dime. They sent me a new one on their dime after about 4 days. I'm not sure anyone makes bags that last anymore, but at least you can get the NRS ones replaced when they start leaking.

-Ray

[ncdavid]

Mohawk sells bags at a reasonable price.

[econpaddler]

just never google "paddling the pink canoe"

[pblanc]

My favorite bags were the nylon ones made by Voyageur, some of which are now being made by Harmony. They did occasionally puncture, but were easily repaired, and held air as well as any, in my experience.

The Dagger bags were made by Headwaters I believe. I have several but haven't noted them to be more airtight or tougher than others.

I think the bags sold by Mohawk, although a bit heavier than some, are pretty good for the price. I've heard others swear by Gaia Everlast bags or NRS bags.

Depending on how things work out with the boat, you might want to consider adding some footpegs at some point. North Water makes some adjustable toe blocks that mount on vinyl patches that you could use. You could also extend your pedestal with a piece of minicell backwards, or glue in a separate minicell block "outrigger" and buy a set of adjustable Yakima footpegs. These would mount on the sides of your existing pedestal and outrigger using threaded, stainless steel rods.

[pblanc]

just never google "paddling the pink canoe"

Although some teenage boys might be intimidated by those "pink canoes", real men never are.

[jmdriscoll]

Cool, thanks for the recommendations. The Mohawk bags look like the ones I'm after..

-Mike

[Arkansas Dave]

Cool, thanks for the recommendations. The Mohawk bags look like the ones I'm after..
-Mike

I'd also like to thank you guys for the recommendations. Mike, I think you'll be happy with the Mohawk bags. They are a little heavier than others. However, the added thickness pays off in durability. In addition, they're made here in the U.S.A.