River running c-2

[Yukon]

Which boats did you run the drops in?

[h2sk1]

Lots of people paddling tandem open canoes up here. Would be very fun to not have to bail and have a boat similar to an Open Canoe with a spray deck that actually kept out water.
Hard to just try out a c-2 here as none around and shipping is a fortune.

There's a couple that I paddle with that made a custom condura spray deck for a tandem and they added fiberglass rims so that they can wear a skirt. This results in a completely dry ride.

The converted a Starburst into a covered tripping boat using this setup, replacing the seats with pedestals and moving them a bit closer, shortening the thwarts, and adding this custom spray deck. It is a very nice setup that allows them to run some big water.

[markzak]

RE: highest drops run in an C2... at the 2008 Moose River Festival in NY, everyone (especially the other C1ers there) watched in absolute awww as this canadian OC2 team in an Esquif boat just stomped down the lines and made everything look unreasonably easy, including the easier side of Magilla (no walk in the park). They were obviously a well practiced pair.

I've taken an OC2 from Fowlersville (see avatar) to Double Drop.

[Kelly-Rand]

Well, I just discovered a bow partner. We spent two hours on a lake both solo and in the C2. We were in sync from the get go, and were able to communicate and effect minor corrections without much discussion. We were able to do aggressive pivot turns using back sweep front sweep combinations that got the front up in the air. We also made both of our roll attempts. I can't wait to get on a river and see what we can do.
I've only witnessed a half dozen tandem teams other than racers who were in sync, LEW and Lil'D are the most recent, over the past 15 years I've been paddling.
I do believe to be a good tandem team you have to do some solo paddling, I don't know how much, but enough to understand the effect of body lean on the course of the boat.
The original post was about production C2's and I am not able to identify a source other than the custom racing boats by Vajda and Galasport. The C2's I've been in I can give my opinion but not much expertise.

Paramax - early to mid 80's C2 typically with slightly offset cockpits which really limited the possible tandem partners depending on the offset. It is a 15' boat a little wider than a standard C1. It is the first C2 I was in and except for my current C2 is the one I've had the most fun in. It is easy to roll. I was able to roll my partner without any help from him other than laying flat on the deck. It surfs like a dream and attains better than my current boat.

Tomahawk - early 90's C2, much wider with more extreme cockpit offsets, though the one I paddled, Adams, I think had centerred cockpits. It felt very stable but I didn't feel that connected to the boat. It is fast and turned well. Didn't get enough time in it to really know it though.

Patriot - mid 90's C2, more volume than the Tomahawk with extreme offset cockpits. It is a fast and stable boat. You can sink the stern in a pivot turn and really lean out over the water to grab and eddy. I could never roll it though and I always felt like I had too much room in the cockpit.

Vajda Magma 410 - 2006 C2, much less volume, only 13'-8" long with centered cockpits. It is less stable than the previous boats when paddled tandem. It is a very nimble and stable boat paddled solo. It turns very quickly but is not as fast as the longer boats. I love to surf in this C2, it hunkers right down in the wave, just like the Paramax. The bow cockpit is usually a few inches under water yet there is no sense of pearling or glued to the bottom, your just parked. The cockpits are large, and require a Dagger Atom sized skirt.

Well I hope someone else provides their Spec's for C2's they've paddled. It would be enlightening to have a catalog of characteristics for these rare boats.

[Jim Michaud]

Which boats did you run the drops in?

Hydra Duet (plastic C-2)

[John Coraor]

Jim:

Just a word of caution about rating a particular C-2 model's performance based on the offset of the cockpits. Slalom C-2s are typically molded with no cockpits or deck openings of any kind. After layup of the deck, cockpit openings are cut and coamings laid-up according to the particular specs of the team that purchases the boat new. They specify bow left or right, the amount of side to side offset (if any), and the spacing between the cockpits (bow to stern) as well. Balancing of the cockpits bow to stern as well as side to side based upon the relative weights of each paddler is also typically necessary in order to optimize its performance.

When you paddle a C-2 that was built new for another team, you inherit their boat specs, which may or may not be appropriate for you and your partner. If you were to buy the same boat new with specs chosen to fit you and your partner's weight, side choice, and paddling style, you would probably find that any given model would handle somewhat differently.

John

[Kelly-Rand]

I wasn't trying to rate the boats based on the offset. I was trying to qualify the conditions of my evaluation. You are right that they are custom and the offsets are set as you describe. Even so the comparisons I was trying to make were general boat performance for non race applications. The new C2's do not have offset cockpits that I have seen because they are too narrow for that to be a factor. Front to back offset is still variable. But, turning speed is an important factor in olympic slalom racing, the closer the cockpits are the more centered the paddlers are around the pivot point and thus their coordinated effort can effect a quicker turn, so I would wager that for most custom C2's ordered these days the cockpits are as close as humanely possible. Now do teams order boats with the cockpit pairs fore or aft of the design centerline due to the weight difference of the pair? I'm not convinced they do. Young paddlers weights change dramatically over months, so as the team did in the boat I have they adjusted the balance by adding or removing weights jammed into the base of the foam saddles.
I like discussions like these so if someone else would like to weigh in it will be welcomed.

[Yukon]

h2sk1
I will be in Ottawa next week and may like to be able to see a canoe like that, was thinking of making something similar. Hope to paddle the Ottawa wed and Thursday

[vann evans]

my wife(Laura) and I have paddled C-2 together since 1985. we bought a Seda end holer from John Dolbear at NOC after watching the Haller brothers(Lecky and Fritz) race C2 on the Nanny. We went through 4 or 5 Hydra duets , a Grokshark, had a Patriot custom made for us and then had Dagger build a cut-down Whupatar('96 Olympic c-2 on the Ocoee). we still paddle it. We love the teamwork and power of the C-2. It turns a lot of heads. We regularly paddle the Nantahala, chatooga, French Broad, Yough, New River Gorge, Tellico and other south east rivers. We also paddle C-1, OC-1 and OC-2.

We have gone over Wonder Falls on the Big Sandy(about 18') in a Hydra duet -I think that's the tallest thing we've done.

As we are slowly aging, I imagine our highest adventures are behind us now.

Vann (and Laura) Evans
Chapel Hill, NC

[yarnellboat]

In WA I've seen some traditional/recreational canoes with closed decks.

Here's what I've seen, sounds like what you're talking about Yukon:
http://www.easyriderkayaks.com/tsl-1.htm

Pat.

[Kelly-Rand]

Well Walt and I got to the LY Wednesday afternoon for a loop run in the C2. We had the whole afternoon to practice and get comfortable in the boat. We started out with a couple practice rolls which were clumsy but we made them. We then went down and surfed the entrance rapids interspersed with ferries and attainments. Getting relaxed in the boat is important and it wasn't until we dropped down Cucumber and hit the left eddy opposite the surf wave that I knew I was finally feeling relaxed. We spent a good 45 minutes surfing here and then played all the features we could till the end at railroad. The Vajda 410 C2 is a very good and predictable river runner. It can also be paddled solo very effectively. I would recommend that if a manufacturer wants to produce a plastic C2 that they look at this boat for ideas. The 415 which is the larger model is the size that may best accommodate most paddlers without compromising performance.
We were the only single bladers in canoes that afternoon, but I guess for midweek it isn't unexpected.