Given the comments the last few years with a few of the newer designs I thought it might be an interesting discussion on what we all think is a reasonable price for a boat... and why that is.
I admit, I'm as guilty as anyone out there looking for a good deal on a used boat... but I've also paid $700+ for a few used boats in good shape... and have purchased several boats new, full price (if anyone wants to give me a deal let me know ).
The biggest eye-opener for me after working with a boat builder was designing and building a few boats. You'll be hard pressed to build a decent glass boat for less than 800-1k in materials... let alone labor costs and royalties (if any). Plastic boats may be cheaper to produce, but the molds can be much more expensive... or not last as long (how is that mold doing RodeoClown?).
Given what folks pay for other sports equipment (I'm thinking skis here to stay non-motorized... let's not even talk about what folks spend on motorized boats) I think we get off fairly easy on new prices for WW equipment... and used can be an absolute steal.
I have a few boats in the fleet older than I am (mid 30's) and still going strong.... properly taken care of they will last a long, long time.
Would I like boats to be less? Of course! But given what goes in to them, they are really very cheap. If the folks who built them were paid what they deserve for putting up with the chemicals, and the skill they've attained boats would cost a lot more. I think we can all agree PS (Composites) is an absolute artist, and one of the best builders out there...and he's certainly not getting rich off it.
I just purchased a new spark and paid $1750. I felt like I was a lot but when Ifigured its a speciality boat with a smaller market i felt it was worth it. A good mountian bike is that much to get one not made in china. Just my thoughts as someone who just looked for a used boat and decided to by new(sold my motorcycle to do so).
i bought a brand new detonator 2 years ago for under $1200, and felt it was a fair deal. with the price of a new boat today approaching $2G, and a new kayak is half that, it's gotta be a pretty tough sell. definitely unaffordable for me, especially in the current economy.
Every "brand new" boat I've ever purchased I still have (except for 2 kayak...they don't count!!!!). Can't say the same for the "used" boats!
When I by "new" I know its a boat I truly want! Buying "used" is usually a deal I can't pass up!
New boats are pricey but in comparison no more so than ski gear or a vehicle! My $.01!!!
Last edited by PAC on Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Paul C.
Cboats Moderator
Official TOG Member (Team Old Guy)!
That's proprietary information.
Actually, the molds have been holding up pretty well. They've been in the barn for since December. We molded enough boats in the first run so that I shouldn't have to run anymore for a while, and I'm guessing by then, I'll have some ideas for changes.
As someone in the industry, I'll be really interested to see where this thread goes. Pricing is an interesting issue. For me, it's a question of what is my time/talent/knowledge worth to make a boat vs. doing something else possibly/probably more lucrative. I've got a pretty good handle on the costs involved in making a boat, but not on the labor involved, since I don't really keep track of that. Probably a good thing.
2K is definitely more than I'm willing to spend on a boat, but I would think about it in the 1,300 range. I agree that the costs are high, unless you can get really high numbers of boats made to offset some of the fixed costs.
I think one of the aspects is the immediate depreciation when you get a few scratches on the boat, much like driving a car off the lot, but percentage wise a lot more. How much difference is there in a 6 mo old used boat vs. a 3 year old used boat (or a 7 yo boat)- maybe a few hundred if it's not been a creeker and been stored properly? I'm sure the PE boats hold their value more than RX, since they wear differently but still.
They should be half the price, made in all the cool colors and available at the local WW boat store without wait. Ok guys, get on it.
Seriously though- mad respect for you guys who are designing and building these things. Maybe someday the sport will grow enough to allow boats to be priced more in line with kayaks so that it would, in turn, bring more people and money into canoeing.
i wouldn't pay more than 900 dollars for a new rolayex boat, they wear out too fast, 2 thousand is an amount i would pay for a canoe lasting 5 years , or 120 trips.. don't no if this helps , but it is realistic.... i'm green on the newer plastic, like the prelude; what's a plastic welder cost and such... my 2 cents ~
Ok, I'll play the boogieman: what are you guys complaining about?
We're paying 2300 to 2700€ for a whitewater solo canoe: royalex. And they wear out just as fast as yours... .
My viper has delaminated chines after 3 years. And yes, we'll first try to repair it. Meanwhile I've got a prelude, but I still like to keep the viper as well.
So yes, boats are expensive, but for us europeans, it's event cheaper to fly over to the US, buy a boat there and transport it to europe as sports gear, then buying one here locally (if you can find a decent flight company with which you can bring your boat back home for a fair price).
oopsiflipped: You know it could cost me a couple of years to get those together . I haven't even had the chance to try it myself (haven't actually been trying either).
I think we'd have more boats to choose from if we ponied up more $ short term... and likely cheaper boats longer term.
The problem, and I think the WW Canoe community has always had it, is that in general the only time you get a new design is when you have an individual willing to donate an immense amount of time (don't try and calculate it Jeremy - you'll only get depressed!), skill, thought, and usually materials in to creating a new boat , plug, and mold... and if there is commercial interest a second mold may be made by the interested producer. If you have ideas you want to see brought in to this world and want to learn more about the process it is immensely rewarding - a few on this board know what I'm talking about. But clearly we're not in it for the money!
Despite the complaints about how quickly boats degrade I think we have the opposite problem - there are to many serviceable older boats out there. They may not be pretty, but they can be had cheap and get you on the water.
What I find strange is that a new boat quickly seems to depreciate to the $200-$600 range... right in there with really old boats. I think we're all just too cheap sometimes (myself included!). The "market" controls the prices, and though I think more boats are posted on Craigslist than here we do have a pretty fair representation.
And for those outside the US - yes we have absolutely no right to whine about it! From talking to NZMatt and others the prices you folks pay are significantly higher (sometimes double or more).
I just paid the 2g for a new ash gunneled L'Edge and would do it again in a minute. A Corvette costs more than an Impala.
Is 2 grand still a lot of money? Of course it is, at least for me. When it was clear this boat was going to become a reality I sold my spare Prelude and some other old boats that were sitting around so I had cash in hand when it became available.
I have found from experience (a lot of it bad ) to buy what I want not what I can find cheap. Buy once cry once. Of course a good deal is always a plus.
Just watching what has been posted here on the making of the L'Edge should give an idea of what all is involved not to mention all that went on that was not posted.
Unfortunately for Esquif unless I happen to break this boat I can't see needing a new boat for a loooong time.
Dennis
"Just Cause I Don't Run My Mouth Don't Mean I Got Nothing To Say" Mike Cooley DBT
The L'Edge should bring a lot more folks in so durability won't matter. Esquif should end up selling lots of them. (Meaning having more durable boats will be good since more people should be in the market)
Last edited by Wendy on Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you purchased that SPARK from, Millbrook Boats, it would have cost you $1349. Shipping and packaging from NH to MD would add another $150 approx.
Who did you buy yours from, if I may ask?
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