Cost of new boats

[FullGnarlzOC]

Going to say something.... and I'll say it once.... until the next time I say it.

UNLESS WE ALL START DOING A BETTER JOB OF APPEALING TO NON-BOATERS/KAYAKERS ALIKE. WE WILL ALWAYS HAVE EXPENSIVE BOATS.

THE MORE BOATS THAT ARE SOLD... THE CHEAPER THINGS WILL GET FOR US.

Something to think about, next time you are on the river... and 20+ yakers are sitting into a Eddy, at the end of a rapid. Sure you could take a smooth(easy) line, and finish upright.... Or you can style it as best you possibly can, and put an impression in kayakers heads that they will never forget. One of the best part of open boating is... if you mess up and flip... you can completely redeem yourself by rolling. 95% of kayakers will never see an open boat do anything 'cool' in their lives. Think about that.

And I'll tell you one thing... the general vibe I've been getting from yakers is... they are looking for a change... so show them that it is possible to do whatever they want in an open boat. If you are swimming down the river, you are doing us all a disservice, but that's just my opinion. It's not that hard to stick ur rolls - practice, every run. But - I've only been boating for a year, what do i know.

By the way - age is not an excuse... Jim Michaud is 74 years old, and can roll his 14ft boat almost every time.

[FullGnarlzOC]

We all need to do a better job of 'selling' boats.

[knu4me]

Kaz

I got my spark from blue mountain outfitters in Harrisburg pa. Its outfitted all I have to do is glue down the knee pads. I figured that was best for me as a newbie to the smaller boats. They also had one I could paddle as a demo which I wanted to do.

Chris

[oopsiflipped]

i didn't mean to imply that the price of a new canoe isn't justified or that it is extreme relative to some other activities already mentioned such as skiing, mountain biking, or scuba diving. however, it is nearly twice what most new kayaks cost and yet another reason kayaking is more appealing to most people than canoeing.

[kanur]

And I'll tell you one thing... the general vibe I've been getting from yakers is... they are looking for a change... so show them that it is possible to do whatever they want in an open boat.

A month or so ago a class V+ Green regular kayaking buddy of mine approached me about buying an OC. He wanted to know what I thought would be a good boat for him to have fun in. He always thought my Prelude looked really cool on the water.

I told him a new boat was about to come out that was going to be THE boat to have for a long time, the L'Edge! He said that was good enough for him and he put money down on a full open ash trimmed version.

When we got the call they were in he made the 11 hour drive with me to pick them up. Even though he had never paddled a white water OC you would never know it by how easy he made it look. He was so excited, all the way home he kept saying we gotta take these to the Caney Fork or the North Chick or some other IV+ run. I expect He'll have his at the Green next summer.

[dwd58]

A good used WW boat really seems to hold its value. I have seen alot of boat that were over half way worn out and they were selling in the 600-900 dollar range. If a boat is not abused, you should be able to get a good bit back in resell if you have to.

[gumpy]

one reason for high dollar boats is a lack of competition in the marketplace. if mohawk were to put a PE (or similar) maxim on the market for $1200 guess how many l'edges would get sold? we have one manufacturer to choose from, and for all of us american boaters it's a foreign manufacturer. how many of you southeastern boaters would prefer to buy a sweet homegrown creeker?

(cricket noises...)

secondly, EDDY IS CORRECT. plain and simple. all you guys who have been boating forever, in the same old recycled ocoee with patches all over it, riding the same low brace down the same class 2+ rapid are doing exactly NOTHING for the sport. time to listen to the relative newcomer, who has an unpopular perspective...

no self respecting butt-boater is gonna want to convert after he/she sees you miss the boof, or not even try, or worse yet, swim. so there's a zillion kayakers out there buyin a new yak every year, driving the industry, all the while laughing at MOST open boaters, and rightfully so. moral of the story? get a roll. try something new. be a ROLE MODEL for all our lost and wandering double-bladed brothers.

(more cricket noises...)

[agrestal]

so when are you boys gonna start crankin out some boats?

[Sir Adam]

I agree it is good to aspire to good technique. That doesn't mean you have to push the limits constantly.

Jim Underwood, with whom I have the pleasure of paddling dances down the river in an old slalom boat (a Jape). After watching him cruise from eddy to eddy, surf a bit, etc... (not "hot dogging") everyone tends to be mesmorized... cboater, kayaker, even rafters. He's just a joy to watch paddle (like watching Scriver, with whom I suspect more of you are familiar). Sure, he hasn't seriously compete it probably 25+ years (WildWater team back in the late 70s.. before that slalom - he still paddles switch... and can paddle switch better than most of us in our given technique).

So to me being smooth (and not swimming ) is preferable. But that doesn't have to mean boring:)

I will heartily second (or third) that I do think all should learn how to roll - but that comes from my background boating in the northeast where swims are generally long and cold (and rocky) and it is preferable to stay IN the boat. I have gathered that a large contingent of boaters in other parts of the country are comfortable swimming and feel it is safe to do so in their areas. Not being from there, nor having boated much south of the James in Richmond, and then only once, I don't feel it qualified to comment other than that qualified comment

Edited to add - back on topic of new boats - I would personally argue a lot of the CBoats (and OC Boats) may very well be better made than the cheaper kayaks - and we should all be thankful for it!

[FullGnarlzOC]

Adam - you're right, you don't have to push the limits all the time. But everyone should start being mindful as they paddle around kayakers. We need to start changing the mindset toward open-boaters. And when I say we need to start changing the mindset... i mean we need to start doing that 10 years ago.

1 yaker sees a real solid/awesome looking line from an openboater...and he talks about it that night at the campground, and 5 more learn of the days events, and perception starts changing.

And Shannon - stay tuned. Except if I was to make boats, and had it my way... Demoing would be done on the UY and no less. That tells you the direction that I would be going. IE - You gotta have skill to paddle them, or you can go with someone else (obviously I wouldn't be in it for money). I'd want to have it to where if you were paddling one of the boats - you are a good enough paddler to turn heads constantly. The type where when you are on the river... people are watching you. That is what will sell boats.... Stay tuned.

[agrestal]

Are you saying I don't turn heads...? haha j/k

[kanur]

So to me being smooth (and not rolling or swimming ) is preferable. But that doesn't have to mean boring

FIXED


I couldn't agree more that we should all be able to roll our boats. I can and most of the time do roll mine. That being said when I want to rip up a rapid or even more so, when I want to show out for our butt boatn breathren I want to do it without flipping. I pay attention to exactly where I am sticking my paddle.

I used to have a paddling bud (RIP Dan) and we would push each other hard. Dan could roll an OC as good and as fast as any kayaker and he almost never swam.

We would run the same rapid together (trying hard to show off for the peanut gallery) and I could style it like nothing could go wrong on this day and Dan might roll 3 times in it. When we would regroup all said peanut gallery had to say was "did you see Dan make those rolls" go figure. That annoyed me then, now I just miss my friend.

My point is, while I want a roll to save my butt I prefer to not have to use it.

[FullGnarlzOC]

a cute girl in an open boat is always going to turn heads. I'm sure you already know this.

way to hijack.

Dennis - good point. Roll should be last option. Well swimming should be last option, but you get my point. I'm sorry about your friend. The risk of something happening in this sport is a very real thing. That's why "judgement' is a huge skill to have. One that I have yet to fully develop. Then again, I dont go running things outside my skill level, but I do run lines that are on the edge. There's a time and a place for everything.

[kanur]

a cute girl in an open boat is always going to turn heads. I'm sure you already know this.



I'm sorry about your friend. The risk of something happening in this sport is a very real thing.

Having a friend who was a cute girl in an open boat is how I got hooked up with some of the good SE boaters, they took my skill to a whole new level

I should point out my friend left us doing something much more dangerous than boating, (driving)

[Craig Smerda]

I bought a used Spanish Fly from Wendy about 10 years ago for $900 and I bet I could still sell it tomorrow after pounding the living tar out of it for at least $500 in three phone calls or less.

A used Ocoee in good shape is worth $500-700 all day long on almost any day at any takeout... in my opinion.

To me... good boat designs if not utterly demolished will always return at least 1/3rd of their initial purchase price.

Fact is that whitewater canoes really aren't keeping canoe companies alive today. Touring and REC boats are what keeps the doors open, the phones ringing and the ovens warm. Why did Dagger stop making canoes? How many ww-canoes does Mad River sell these days? When's the last time you saw a new Blue Hole or Whitesell on the water? Frankly I for one am happy that both Mohawk and Esquif are making whitewater canoes... but I realize that neither of them aren't just doing it because they think they are going to make a bunch of money... from my view they do it because it's a passion they enjoy and because they see many of us having so much fun doing it and want to be associated with it.

I guess I really have a hard time putting a pricetag on things I enjoy... I used to ride BMX bikes as a kid (in the 80's) competitively and wasted a lot of $ on that... I rode snowmobiles and motorcycles and wasted even more money... I was into cars in a bad way and thousands of dollars were flushed down the toilet every year but I didn't mind. When I discovered paddling... the only money I really "wasted" was on gas and beer which in comparison to the other prior hobbies was spit in a bucket... he11... getting away from all of that "other stuff" while literally boating at every given chance I had probably actually saved me thousands of dollars.

Does everyone "need" a new boat?

Does everyone "need" a new pair of ski's, a mountain bike, a car or anything else in the world?

Nope.

But ultimately if no one ever bought those "new" things... there wouldn't be any "used" things... right? How do you ever expect to get the latest and greatest used "thing" if no one bought it "new" in the first place?

I'll never buy something purely based on price versus the quality of the product I'm purchasing. I guess everyone places the "value" of things in their own way. I learned long ago though... that a cheap price doesn't matter when something is a piece of garbage. I've turned down "free" paddling gear, paddles and boats in the past because I didn't either like or believe in the product. I won't sacrifice my enjoyment, safety or fun just to save a dollar... and I'd never be someones prostitute.

OY!!!

Wasn't this thread about the price of new boats and not the size of someones cajone's?

Percieved value... to each his or her own.