Downriver Racing Advice

[Outdoorpunk]

I have a group of college students that have started some downriver racing, both OC2 and OC1. They have been using our old Blueholes to do so. These are not the fastest boats on the scene but I am stoked they are in canoes regardless. I would love to help them out and be a little more competitive and was wondering what are some good boats that I should be looking for that would work well for these races. Any help is great. Thanks

[2opnboat1]

only go about 50%-75% power at the start and remember you win the race on the flats and loose it in the rapids.

[sbroam]

Look for a copy of "Canoe Racing" by Peter Heed and Dick Mansfield.

[Outdoorpunk]

I am looking at the book right now online. Having trouble finding the newer edition. Does it matter? Regardless it looks perfect, all the reviews are great. Thanks.

Ahhh, the flat water. Yes, this is a problem. I work at Hollins University, which is an all women's school. The tandem canoe event is coed and they get smoked on the flat water. Now they can paddle whitewater in an OC2, and most of them paddle really well. I am excited that they are so into canoes and want to help them out. So I really appreciate your help.

[ezwater]

See that the tandem OCAs are trimmed close to level. A little bit bow up is ok, but not a lot.

The first solo downriver race on the Ocoee was won by a friend of mine in a Blue Hole OCA.

[scott curtis]

ask phil

[philcanoe]

I'll definitely second the afore-mentioned book - "Canoe Racing - The Competitor's Guide to Marathon and Downriver Racing" book by Peter Heed and Dick Mansfield.

One place you can find it is here: http://www.zre.com/catalog/thecompetito ... 4b935e842b

While there, you may also want to look at some of the ZRE paddles. Don't know if you have or have not looked at downriver paddles, but to be competitive you may need to consider different paddles. The book will fill you in more, as well as introduce various essential tid-bit's and concepts. I do know that while a bent shaft is rather unfamiliar to many whitewater canoers, they are practically the norm for people racing downriver. There are other paddle makers to look at, but really remember light weight is key.

Seems like the plastic boat of choice is/was the Penobscot 17. YOu might try asking here: http://wwocd.org/ It's the downriver site, and they may be a better source for you. George is listed there as a contact, and he for sure knows way more than I do.

[kleroy]

Normally, I'm just a lurker on this forum because I know so little about whitewater that I don't really have anything to contribute. I consider myself a whitewater boater wannabe.

But this topic of downriver racing is getting closer to my world of marathon canoe.

Yes, the Penobscot 17 is a very popular boat for downriver. Another option is the Wenonah Sundowner 17. As an option, Wenonah will outfits this boat with (low) sliding tractor seats and a stern foot-brace to better accommodate the sit-n-switch paddling style.

Sit-n-switch, or marathon style, is most definitely faster in flatwater than the traditional paddling style that whitewater boaters (and summer camp veterans) are familiar with. In marathon style, you try to never do any steering at the end of the stroke. Instead, the boat is kept going straight by the stern paddler calling "hut!" and both bow and stern switch hands. When steering is necessary, it is accomplished mostly by bow sweeps and stern draws.

Many good downriver teams will do marathon style in the flatwater, but then use a kind of hybrid between marathon style and traditional style in the whitewater.

Regarding coed teams. If you look at results of most marathon races, the good mixed teams are typically not too far behind the good men’s teams. The overall lighter weight of the team often makes up for the disadvantage in power. (Please forgive the broad generalization. I know there are exceptions.)

In marathon, the heavier and stronger paddler usually goes in the bow -- so that the team puts as much power as possible into driving the boat forward. And the lighter paddler goes in the stern. The stern paddler’s first job is to keep the boat headed in the right direction -- going fast is only a secondary responsibility.

[Will]

As far as OC2 I recomend the Old Town Penobscot or Wenonah Sundowner as well. I have raced both in downriver races and prefer the Penobscots. They have a stiffer Royalex layup than the Sundowner and I feel are overall a better boat. Both boats are common good performers in down river races and are normally the top finishing Royalex canoes in the 17' and over division.

If there is no length requirement normally the longer canoe will be faster than the shorter ones. Depending on how tough the water is and amount of manuvering needed you are normally better off in a longer canoe when racing. Also look into the water line width. The narrower the faster, around 32-34 or so inches on a 17' canoe is fast. Make sure it has depth to keep the water out as well. The Penobscot & Sundowner are both narrow and deep.

Hope this helps

[Outdoorpunk]

This is awesome and I want to thank everyone. And please keep it coming. I have already gotten my copy of Canoe Racing and it is going to be indispensable for the coming year.

I have also seen the ZRE paddles... as they shot past us in the race. That is where I found the book.

I am already looking for Sundowner and Penobscot boats so if anyone has a lead let me know.

Now, my next question: I understand the concept of a trim canoe but how do you do it without a sliding seat.

Thanks again for all the help and comments.

[2opnboat1]

you should also look at the Intrepide 17 a lot of adventure races use them

[VAnate]

You said you already got a copy of the book they recommended but if you or anyone else is looking for another copy there is one for sale in lexington that the seller is willing to ship for a total price of $6.

http://www.coastals.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9242

[Al Donaldson]

Now, my next question: I understand the concept of a trim canoe but how do you do it without a sliding seat.

Thanks again for all the help and comments.

Jon:

As I change the trim (or set it up initially) on every tandem (or solo, come to think of it) that I paddle, I can come close to an answer for this one:

Get replacement seats and thwarts and put them where they need to be. If you buy from a small manufacturer like Mohawk or Two Brothers, they will do this for you.

On a tandem, most of the trim problems that are associated with stock boats are exacerbated by the fact that (IMHO) the seats are placed way too close to the boat bow and stern than they "should be."

In my "general river use" tandem 16 foot boats, the distance between the seats or kneeling thwarts usually runs (front of the stern seat to back of the bow seat) about 42". Boats that are to be used on rougher water will have that distance cut to below 32" usually.

If you've a physics background, make a vector diagram of the boat with positions similar to that and one of a canoe with a 6 or 7 foot distance, and look at the differences. When the paddler mass is concentrated near the center of the boat, several things happen:

1) the differences in paddler weight become much less critical;
2) the boat will develop much less rotational inertia when going over drops, thus surfacing more readily and plowing less deeply into the water;
3) the boat will both spin more easily and will stop spinning more easily, again due to the reduced rotational inertia ( think momentum);
4) communication between the paddlers is much improved,as they are close enough together to talk and not shout, and, finally,
5) (A biggie for newbie bow paddlers) the bow paddler is positioned so that she (or he) feels much more "in" the boat rather than stuck out on the end. This can do a world of good for the bow paddler's confidence level.


Most tandem canoes are designed to sell, not to paddle well. An immense distance between the seats makes the boat look "bigger," and gives the impression that it will carry more.

Sliding seats may be ok for touring lake canoes, but they pose some problems under river conditions.


HTH

Regards,

al

[kleroy]

Al is right about all the good reasons to move both paddlers toward the center of the boat. However, as with everything else in this world, there are both positives and negatives, points and counterpoints, debits and credits, .... I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

In a tandem canoe, the main reason you might want to get paddlers as far out to the ends of the boat as possible is that both can then paddle much closer to the center-line running down the length of the hull. (Keel-line is the old term.) This helps keep the boat going straight with as little steering input as possible. That's why marathon canoes and (flatwater) expedition canoes have seats out at the ends of the boat.

In a canoe set-up for downriver racing, I wouldn't move the seats too close to the middle.

[Outdoorpunk]

This is awesome! I really do appreciate it. Lets keep it coming. Now, where could I get one of the sliding seats to install in a boat?