You bet I whished I had one three weeks ago on a local creek flipped on my offside on a steep and very shallow portion ( twice actually) where I just couldn't pass under the boat for there was not enough water.
bruised elbow and teared dry suit... Yeah I'll go get some elbow pads soon but also a way to get outa there with my paddle would have been great.
I always try to roll immediately after flipping, most often without thinking about setting up -- just roll to roll up (I'm concentrating on being right side up).
If that fails, then I often wait a moment for things to settle, and then I concentrate on the roll, thinking about all the rolling mechanics, trying to ensure to get everything efficient, thinking about rolling.
I think your talking about an offside flip Gord, as opposed to an 'offside roll'. I was corrected not to long ago... apparently offside roll, is actually rolling on your offside. Good luck with that if thats what you are aiming for... but I dont think it is.
If you tuck tight with your paddle along side if ur onside hull... it wont matter which way you flip because you'll be tight to the onside... then you wanna sweep with some paddle resistance, this will pull your body into proper position... This is really hard to understand until you feel it.
As for whether setup or actual roll phrase is more important... If you cant get to the proper spot (which sounds like its a large part of the problem, especially on offside flip), then the roll phase doesn't even matter...
What Jeremy said about learning to hit a roll with many different setups, in many different ways... That is good advice, you want to be able to get to 'roll position' very quickly, anyway you can... The more you practice the better you'll become.
The more you roll in gametime situations, the better. Practice on flatwater is good and all just to get it down...but if you want to truly bombproof your roll, you need to put yourself in a little bit of harms way. Only then will things like nerves, and clutchness be on ur side. This goes for all who struggle with their rolls... start pushin the envelope if you want to get better at it. Dropping sideways over pourovers is a good way to practice....AHAHA. really tho.
The topic has taken an interesting turn -- your comments about 'off-side' rolling invite additional questions from us noobs.
See if I have the basic idea:
1. An 'on-side' roll seems pretty straight forward -- from the set-up, the paddle starts on the off-side, and ends up on the on-side. The lower (shaft) arm kinda starts by reaching across the boat, and 'pulls' the paddle across the deck to the on-side, to finish the roll.
2. ?An 'off-side' roll starts with the paddle on the on-side, and during the roll, the lower (shaft) arm sweeps the paddle over the deck toward the off-side, and the arms end up crossed, with the blade on the off-side?
Something like that???
I've tried it in the pool, and actually got a C-1 up, though I haven't had success with an OC-1.
I've found it helps to flip my lower-shaft hand over so it is 'pushing' palm-up, rather than 'pulling' backhand, with knuckles-up.
Would be grateful for your comments -- is this a viable skill for regular use -- something we should all work on? Or is it a cute parlour trick, to save for showing off on flat water?
You bet I whished I had one three weeks ago on a local creek flipped on my offside on a steep and very shallow portion ( twice actually) where I just couldn't pass under the boat for there was not enough water.
bruised elbow and teared dry suit... Yeah I'll go get some elbow pads soon but also a way to get outa there with my paddle would have been great.
I hear you on this one. Same scenario, but it was in some CII stuff. I was messin' around, all cozy and relaxed because, after all, it was only class II right? Next thing I know, I'm over on my off-side, scraping creekbed while trying an offside roll. After a few yards of being shredded along the rocks, I decided to duck under and around to my onside. PFD caught on something jagged and I was pulled from my outfititting and into the sheepish-grin covered world of the swimmer.
In hindsight, I should have pushed off the bottom...offside or not.
i think it's in one of Dooley's videos from a long time ago. It shows a REAL PADDLER in a viper I thinl get an offside roll in the Sinks in the Little River , Smokeys. It is very impressive. I've never actually seen it done.
An Offside low brace used to be taught in some tandem classes but since none of the instructors could do it, or had ever seen it done, we quit teaching it.
Bill
I don't recommend trying the 'offside' roll. Where you are rolling on your 'offside' upside down... its very awkward on your shoulder and there is not much need for it unless you are stuck in a hole on your offside, and keep getting window shaded... if this happens, you can cross draw in the water, grab the green water, and offside hipsnap your way back up(remember, if you actuaully do this, to hold the cross high-brace...as you'll be in a gnarly surf at this point).
A bombproof onside roll is all you really need. I can see reason to argue that an off-side roll is worth practicing...but not until you bombproof an onside roll, to where you don't miss a roll...to where you dont give yourself a pat on the back for 'hitting a roll'.
Rolling is easy. Rolling in ClIII-V whitewater when the pressure is on 100% successfully is not. By practicing your rolls in the trenches you will learn to 'make it work' when you roll...and learn to get up no matter what it takes.
In my short paddling career - I've been pinned upside down against rocks, undercuts, and cliffs... the key is getting a breath and figuring out what you must do to not swim. The more things happen, the more you know how to deal with them. The story of Jim's paddling upside down is what it takes... focus, and good thought process.
Ian - Clutchness.... it's hitting a roll when you only have 10ft of run-off before the next manky 20ft drop. It's hitting a roll when you know there is a killer sieve on ur side of the river. It's hitting the roll when 2000 people are watching.... Executing under pressure, or boating above your skill level...clutchness.
If it was too shallow to get under the boat to your onside, like in Eli's situation... You are better off switching your hands and just pushing off the bottom... as opposed to taking the type to practice and offside roll, which in all honestly would probably do more harm than good.
Offside OC1 Roll - one of the best ways to dislocate a should in my opinion. And hard enough to do on flatwater, let alone when the sht hits the fan.
1blade- they're not talking about switching hands. it's a cross deck roll.
yeah it's awkward, but like eli said (we all should read what he writes two or three times), it's usefullness is when you're getting beat down offside in a hole and you just can't get turned around to do a proper roll..
it saved me from a potentially nasty swim once.
wrt what gnarlz is sayin..well it's sort of right. I agree that combat rolls get better with practice in combat, but i would not say to go out and flip in class four just to work on your roll. that's stupid. Your roll has to be 100% before you can expect to get a combat roll. I'm not saying don't push yourself. Just sayin don't jump ahead of your skills.
Work on combat rolls by playing real hard in safe situations. Play in holes.. drop into holes sideways & backwards.. splat safe rocks.. do rock spins, boofs. Whatever, go silly. But do it where you won't get hurt.
You will be flipping unintentionally and that's how you get it down.
The real combat rolls will just naturally come if you roll a lot, but there's no need to practice it in sketchy situations..
speaking of combat rolls...
some paddlers think they're bad-a$$. and some truely are..
Nice video... great example of 'refusing to swim'. and a great example of why you don't want to swim, as per what was below...
The only way to bombproof a roll is to get out there in the gnarlz, and test it out...again and again. It doesn't take long, you just have to be willing to put in the risk vs reward. Maybe risk some bruises, and scrapes(if you swam) now... so you can hit the roll in front of that killer feature later...just sayin.
The dude wants to have a 100% roll...and he's at 90-95 in class III, which means he occassionally misses one(guessing he gets stuck on an offside edge upside down, and has a tough time correcting it.).
If that is the problem, that can be practiced in a pool, however the underwater draw to get ur body to onside, and onside edge up, eventually needs to be instinctual.... and the only way to do it, is to put yourself in situations that demand it.
Two schools of thought here. You all know my MO, not saying it's the best way(the FullGnarlz way)... but it works, i promise. Just be smart about it... For instance, if u haven't gone FullGnarlz in class III, don't do it in class IV until you have done so in III....
Fullgnarlz paddling - paddling hard, trying any and everything(backferry?), hit every eddy, every wave.... and roll hard when you mess up(if ur not messing up, you are either not trying enough stuff, or ur name is Eli or Dooley).
A couple weekends of doing that on Class III, and you should have better jump on your BPed roll.
FYI - I was flipping 5+ times a run during my 'bombproofing' process, which was on class III-V. First 5 runs on the UY this summer, I went 27/27...or something like that. My thought process was... I'm either going to learn how to hit my roll when it counts, or pay for it.
