Now the topic of fear being brought up. There are some people running stuff that the consequence could very much be death. As the grade goes up so does the probability.
But in reality how dangereous is the extreme open boating? Is it as dangereous as kayaking? Have heard of kayak accidents. Have there been many canoe accidents on serious water from serious boaters?
I know of one in BC many years ago with people I used to paddle with. It is not a situation any of us want to be in. Thoughts and respect to those that have been lost and families and friends also.
I have been at a takeout where a kayaker passed and it was not a great feeling and one that stays in the back of my mind.
In expedition climbing it is a topic that is often brought up and many mountaineers have been lost.
If you feel comfortable to post and share so we may learn thank you for sharing.
Death and Paddling
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
-
jatakasawa
- C Guru
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:00 pm
- Location: Central PA
Again, I can write up a response and throw in Doug Ammons' name.
Here are a few chapter titles in his book, Whitewater Philosophy:
Soloing and Taboos
Fear in Kayaking. (Insert canoeing.)
Reflections on danger and Certain Death.
Making sense of Death.
I swear, I'm not a marketing agent for Ammons, but his stuff touches upon a lot of what we talk about in here. My personal philosophy stems from my natural and deep curiosity. I look at the accident reports on AW. I dig for the details of fatal boating accidents. And I suppose I do this to learn and to try to prevent, which is the best possible thing we can take from the worst possible thing. If my time on Earth ends while I'm on the creek or river, I don't know that my wife and son would understand that. In retrospect, I don't know if I would understand that.
A friend of mine has the complete opposite approach...he doesn't want to look at or think about the accident reports. He keeps his mind focused on the positive.
The bottom line is that statistically, WW boating is one of the safest "extreme" sports out there. Mountaineering is WAY more deadly. Certainly, death is a consequence most boaters take into consideration but I'd rather take the risk and have some fulfilling and amazing life experiences than live to be 90 and WISH I had done something REAL.
Here are a few chapter titles in his book, Whitewater Philosophy:
Soloing and Taboos
Fear in Kayaking. (Insert canoeing.)
Reflections on danger and Certain Death.
Making sense of Death.
I swear, I'm not a marketing agent for Ammons, but his stuff touches upon a lot of what we talk about in here. My personal philosophy stems from my natural and deep curiosity. I look at the accident reports on AW. I dig for the details of fatal boating accidents. And I suppose I do this to learn and to try to prevent, which is the best possible thing we can take from the worst possible thing. If my time on Earth ends while I'm on the creek or river, I don't know that my wife and son would understand that. In retrospect, I don't know if I would understand that.
A friend of mine has the complete opposite approach...he doesn't want to look at or think about the accident reports. He keeps his mind focused on the positive.
The bottom line is that statistically, WW boating is one of the safest "extreme" sports out there. Mountaineering is WAY more deadly. Certainly, death is a consequence most boaters take into consideration but I'd rather take the risk and have some fulfilling and amazing life experiences than live to be 90 and WISH I had done something REAL.
Chester the Brace Monkey.
-
Dale Barton
- C Boater
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:00 am
- Location: Arkansas
Death
I have been involved in 5 different drownings on the river, some with people I was paddling with, some I was involved with after the fact, but it has made me more aware of what was going on around or behind me. It seems that this has made me more likely to look for possible problems, and may have led to a few saves that could have definite problems. Strangley, I don't worry so much about myself, maybe because I am reasonably sure about what I can do and can't. Or maybe because having been thru BIG C, nothing else scares me as much. Dale
A little dark around this season folks IMHO!
Just trying to be positive... accidents happen! We do the best we can to avoid them... and it helps to have a good strong group with you! Lots of near misses that we laugh about now.. but at the time it was some scary large steaming pile of dog doo!
Good those to all .. including those who we now miss!
Just trying to be positive... accidents happen! We do the best we can to avoid them... and it helps to have a good strong group with you! Lots of near misses that we laugh about now.. but at the time it was some scary large steaming pile of dog doo!
Good those to all .. including those who we now miss!
With luv
Big Nasty
Big Nasty
-
coloradopaddler
- C Guru
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:48 am
- Location: Durango, Colorado
if you paddle long enough eventually you are going to come across a situation or know someone involved in a bad situation. be safe, know what you can do ahead of time, and don't die!
In a canoe you don't just float down a river: you're part of it- a silent water creature responsive to every surge and flex of current, gliding like a fingertip over a naked green body. "The River Why" David James Duncan
-
Louie
dam I don't what you all paddle or how much but since I started in 1968 I have yet to be on a trip where a boater died. Raft customers ya sure, hades fire the only really close friend I had to die in a boatin accident was Pablo.
Am I boatin hard stuff with really good boater or what?
All the death you all have been around were they on class I and Class II or Class IV and V. Where do most river deaths happen, on hard runs or easy runs?
five river deaths you been a part of. I was on the river for three deaths on the lower Ocoee and two on the upper and one was a butt boater stabin another in the leg and lettin him bleed out. And I really was only at the scence for one. I did raft down by Shipwreck when some lady was stuck under the rock. Oh ya I knew Jessie Sharp but we can't prove he is dead. As far as near deaths on personal trips well bad drivin and cold weather has come closer to killin some of us than bad boatin. Now Gabe will tell you Joe was only a half a second away from certain death, but all I know is when he got his foot unstuck and floated free he was concious and breathing,
The guy on here has it right however this is a screwed up subject matter for this time of the year, ther ain't a swing richard on here that ain't goin to die and not all of us will be luckly enought to go out in a flammin car wreck, so personally I rather not survive Niagra Fall than a lot of ways I can think of.
Now about gettin eatin by a crockadial...well after I run all the river that don't have them in them, maybe I would start doing the rivers that do
Am I boatin hard stuff with really good boater or what?
All the death you all have been around were they on class I and Class II or Class IV and V. Where do most river deaths happen, on hard runs or easy runs?
five river deaths you been a part of. I was on the river for three deaths on the lower Ocoee and two on the upper and one was a butt boater stabin another in the leg and lettin him bleed out. And I really was only at the scence for one. I did raft down by Shipwreck when some lady was stuck under the rock. Oh ya I knew Jessie Sharp but we can't prove he is dead. As far as near deaths on personal trips well bad drivin and cold weather has come closer to killin some of us than bad boatin. Now Gabe will tell you Joe was only a half a second away from certain death, but all I know is when he got his foot unstuck and floated free he was concious and breathing,
The guy on here has it right however this is a screwed up subject matter for this time of the year, ther ain't a swing richard on here that ain't goin to die and not all of us will be luckly enought to go out in a flammin car wreck, so personally I rather not survive Niagra Fall than a lot of ways I can think of.
Now about gettin eatin by a crockadial...well after I run all the river that don't have them in them, maybe I would start doing the rivers that do
-
Yukon
- Yukan Canoe
- Posts: 391
- Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:27 pm
- Location: Whitehorse, Yukon,Canada
- Contact:
Ya I guess I did not think about the time of year. All the talk about fear I guess. Or maybe cuz have a funeral to go to tomorrow. And hey is not Christ mas about some dude names Jesus death.
I have heard of accident of newbies or unprepared but can not recall solo oc ones. So maybe it is a much safer water craft or its just a # game.
Driving to the put in is by far the most dangereous aspect of paddling and most things that we do.
Anyways cheers all and Merry Christmas
ps would Jesus have been an open boater or a butt boater?
I have heard of accident of newbies or unprepared but can not recall solo oc ones. So maybe it is a much safer water craft or its just a # game.
Driving to the put in is by far the most dangereous aspect of paddling and most things that we do.
Anyways cheers all and Merry Christmas
ps would Jesus have been an open boater or a butt boater?
-
Yukon
- Yukan Canoe
- Posts: 391
- Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:27 pm
- Location: Whitehorse, Yukon,Canada
- Contact:
Ya I guess I did not think about the time of year. All the talk about fear I guess. Or maybe cuz have a funeral to go to tomorrow. And hey is not Christ mas about some dude names Jesus death.
I have heard of accident of newbies or unprepared but can not recall solo oc ones. So maybe it is a much safer water craft or its just a # game.
Driving to the put in is by far the most dangereous aspect of paddling and most things that we do.
Anyways cheers all and Merry Christmas
ps would Jesus have been an open boater or a butt boater?
I have heard of accident of newbies or unprepared but can not recall solo oc ones. So maybe it is a much safer water craft or its just a # game.
Driving to the put in is by far the most dangereous aspect of paddling and most things that we do.
Anyways cheers all and Merry Christmas
ps would Jesus have been an open boater or a butt boater?
on water. 
A dark subject, I wish I knew less about.
I've got some thoughts on it that are of course far from mainstream, not for web broadcast. Let's share a bottle of rye by a fire if you ever want to talk about it. I'll tell you why I'm a soloist. (after the holidays).
On a more festive note - my nephews are up ( 5 & 8 ) for X-mas.
You and Pelly(and ladies) are hereby challengend to come over for a street hockey whoopin - fire, warm beverages and munchies.
Boxing day or next I'll give a call.
I've got some thoughts on it that are of course far from mainstream, not for web broadcast. Let's share a bottle of rye by a fire if you ever want to talk about it. I'll tell you why I'm a soloist. (after the holidays).
On a more festive note - my nephews are up ( 5 & 8 ) for X-mas.
You and Pelly(and ladies) are hereby challengend to come over for a street hockey whoopin - fire, warm beverages and munchies.
Boxing day or next I'll give a call.
I lost a friend in a canoeing accident on Puget Sound. There are still a lot of unanswered questions about that incident (some of which are down right freaky), but as best as anyone can figure the canoe was struck by lightning. Not a whole lot of lessons to be learned from that incident.
I'm a search and rescue deputy in a county where we have rivers and creeks ranging from class I to V. In six years I have been there all the river deaths have been in class I-II water where 90% of the population use the river. Common denominators seem to be a lack of experience, no PFDs, poor equipment, and strainers/entrapment hazards. We average anywhere from 3-5 river deaths a year.
Looking through the AW safety pages there are plenty of examples of canoers meeting their untimely end. I never really compared numbers on it, but it always seemed to me that there were more canoers dying than kayakers. One of the more common reasons listed is the boats wrap causing entrapments. This is not as big of an issue with today's shorter kayaks with center pillars.
Ultimately what seems to get people killed on the river based on the AW database is alcohol, lack of experience, no PFD, low level dams, strainers, and stupidity in general. These are going to be problems in any boat (especially the stupidity). I don't think kayaks are more dangerous than canoes or vice versa.
Kyle
I'm a search and rescue deputy in a county where we have rivers and creeks ranging from class I to V. In six years I have been there all the river deaths have been in class I-II water where 90% of the population use the river. Common denominators seem to be a lack of experience, no PFDs, poor equipment, and strainers/entrapment hazards. We average anywhere from 3-5 river deaths a year.
Looking through the AW safety pages there are plenty of examples of canoers meeting their untimely end. I never really compared numbers on it, but it always seemed to me that there were more canoers dying than kayakers. One of the more common reasons listed is the boats wrap causing entrapments. This is not as big of an issue with today's shorter kayaks with center pillars.
Ultimately what seems to get people killed on the river based on the AW database is alcohol, lack of experience, no PFD, low level dams, strainers, and stupidity in general. These are going to be problems in any boat (especially the stupidity). I don't think kayaks are more dangerous than canoes or vice versa.
Kyle
-
Yukon
- Yukan Canoe
- Posts: 391
- Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:27 pm
- Location: Whitehorse, Yukon,Canada
- Contact:
Kyle I know about those stupid accidents which skew the stats, No pfd and alchohal are major factors.
i am curious about open boaters that are on solid intermediate to expert, people running the gnar as Gnarlz would say. I am not aware of many accidents. Is that because it takes much longer for open boaters to get comfortable on hard water, or is it the chance of getting stuck in your boat less than in a kayak or just way less people running gnar in a canoe. Or maybe there is just a limit of what open boats run.
Maybe my topic title was not the best.
i am curious about open boaters that are on solid intermediate to expert, people running the gnar as Gnarlz would say. I am not aware of many accidents. Is that because it takes much longer for open boaters to get comfortable on hard water, or is it the chance of getting stuck in your boat less than in a kayak or just way less people running gnar in a canoe. Or maybe there is just a limit of what open boats run.
Maybe my topic title was not the best.
-
Louie
Last year there were so many kayak and canoe deaths the Coast guard issue a special alert they had 2 main themes
1 No life jacket
2 Alcohol
When get on the river I put my faith in God my skills and my friends who are on the river. But the chance always is there
So be careful everyone and Merry Christmas!
1 No life jacket
2 Alcohol
When get on the river I put my faith in God my skills and my friends who are on the river. But the chance always is there
So be careful everyone and Merry Christmas!