The Re-Birth of Canoeing (plastic canoe era)

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:01 pm

Our club does the opposite in classes. All we offer are canoe classes--we figure there are plenty of kayaking classes already available. Though we did offer an IK class last year because none of those are available.

One popular class we've offered is Canoeing for Kayakers. We provide interested kayakers with solo canoes and work with them for a weekend on learning canoeing skills. Unfortunately, none of the grads have become canoe fanatics, but a few of them have bought boats and now make easier runs challenging by doing them in their canoes.

Post by **PAC** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:03 pm

I agree that with the new boats... the videos... the attitudes... the youth... and the wisdoms (not "olds"

)... are all helping to get the "canoeing is cool" message out to the boating community!

Pat we kid Tony B that when he is in his L'Edge...he is in his magic boat... he looks that good!!! Big Al was fine in it too at his weight / size but then he looks good in a Black Fly too (darn him).

As for....

Unfortunately, a lot of the instructional clubs and groups only focus on kayaking, because it is easier to teach. I know personally of one club that not only won't instruct canoeing, they won't allow canoes on whitewater trips (and they call themselves a canoe club, go figure)

That sux for the club in question.... but you sort of have to push back and SCREAM at them to get canoe back in the program... you might have to teach as well.... and it might be on lower class stuff... but if you don't... who will?

Teaching is a great way of self learn too... because you have to be in tune with what to look for and how to explain things. My $.01

PS: Local SW PA club (TRPC) has 2 inexpensive clinics a year. And while the past numbers have been low the count is starting to grow. Instruction is pretty good too (excluding myself)! Hopefully we'll C even more this year (kids and adults).

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:40 pm

Dooleyoc-1 wrote:I've had this theory for several years and I think it's been proven to be correct. I think canoe sales and general interest in whitewater canoeing started to drop off back in 1999 when the skeeter came out and dagger followed with quake.

They were awesome boats. The best canoeists switched over to them because who wouldn't want a shorter plastic canoe on a steep creek or a rodeo hole?
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People want to buy new designs (innovation drives the sport) but they also want to paddle canoes that look like canoes (partly to get the respect for paddling an open boat). Basically, the market wants to paddle short plastic boats that look like canoes.

Why - Yes We/I jumped to HDPE boats, as soon as they became available. With the options being composite-fiber boats or Royal-EX, it was an obvious choice for steep creeking (and no - not all disciplines). It was a Skeeter and it had-has a traditional bottom. Yes it's a highly rocker'ed and rather narrow hull (or bottom), but it's a continuous curve and symmetrical. So it took a couple years before jumping to a Spanish Fly with it's planing play-boat hull. It just didn't look right. That was my personal view from the inside (of the sport), and not looking in. For the new on-looker, these types are something which look exotic, way rad, and extremely uncompromising in handling. Just the same sort of things which might make most youngsters go for a kayak.

I believe there's a curve, and that sometimes things go to extremes that are later scaled back. Take the first poly'canoes (not K'news) no one believed in them, and only Frankie pulled it off. There was a feeling that with so much surface area oil-canning would not only be inevitable, but dangerous or even life threatening. Well we all know that to be untrue now, but only Selene at Savage was willing to make the attempt. So the task was like most others, take what we know and go forward. We had plastic kayaks, and a kayak company took the plunge using what they knew. It was indeed radical, but so was HDPE. Back then there were some even trying to do everyday boating in a CUFly. So now the market is wanting their canoes to look like a canoe, and not just for aesthetics.

I do believe that the shape above water has scared off some, but feel it was the introduction of the modern playboat that really helped thin-out the ranks of whitewater canoeist. That these two coincided, and with all the flash of going even more into the third dimension canoeing suffered a bit. What I see now is people appreciating the sport of paddling in more aspects, and the open canoe is just one more facet. The best has always been able to do both, just look at Kent, EJ, Corran, or Shane. The difference is now it appears to be, this mindset is gaining more acceptability. That the Neanderthal preaching their chosen craft is better or that it's more manly to do as I do, has been replaced with the mindset of I'd like to do that too.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:30 pm

Yeah, I've tried the L'Edge, and I liked it - we were lucky enough to get one out to the Tamihi Five-0 Open Canoe Slalom, and it remains at Western Canoeing for demo. You should've come up Marc!

A few pics here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/vanc.yarnel ... amihiFive0#

I was really impressed with it's stabilty & dryness for my weight!

My only problem with it, as Yukon mentions, was that it was a pretty short, uncomfortable demo because the bulkhead doesn't fit my legs. Straps definitely make more sense for demo boats!

I was speaking more for the common opinion from around these parts, not just personally: there were a lot of comments that the L'Edge was quite slow & heavy (for the class III river running we tend to do here). Don't shoot the messenger, but the perception around here is that it's a better boat for the narrow market of people doing steeper creeking.

Basically, people found it slow, heavy, but stable, like a Quake. And for the less abusive river running, it seems people may prefer the hull speed of their Vipers, Outrages, Zephyrs, etc. over the short PE boats. So, for those many paddlers, whether it's because of their paddling style, weight, or their cheapness, whichever, a 9' 60lb L'Edge won't be a "rebirth", that's all I'm sayin'. Admittedly, the fact that we were trying it at a slalom race probably didn't favour positive reviews!

Despite the "not a slalom boat" reviews, I'd buy a L'Edge, I think I would adapt to it easily and have fun. Unfortunately, with a baby at home I'm not paddling enough these days to "need" a new boat, so I'll wait and see. But I was very impressed the versatility of the L'Edge.

Pat.

fez · Post by **fez** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:31 pm

Larry Horne wrote: Why always this talk about "grow the sport"?

Exactly thats what I also don`t understand at all.

RodeoClown · Post by **RodeoClown** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:33 pm

Very well put Phil.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:41 pm

I believe growth is good...

.. otherwise it's demise, as nothing is static very long. Normally life is in stasis with ebb and flow. Perhaps the best reason I see for increased participation, is for the choices (as someone stated earlier). As there seems to have been more options for boats a few years ago.

fez · Post by **fez** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:51 pm

I can speak only for Germany, but for shure the interest in cboating has risen in the last years, without any advertising campaigns.

Where there more cboaters in former years in northern America then now? Was there actual a demise ?

ice-breaker · Post by **ice-breaker** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:00 pm

fez wrote:
Larry Horne wrote: Why always this talk about "grow the sport"?
Exactly thats what I also don`t understand at all.

I tend to be in general agreement with Larry and Fez who questioned “why is it so important to grow the sport”? Seems to me that there are a wide range of benefits/detriments associated with "growing the sport" of ww canoeing.

On the plus (benefits) side:
- Manufacturers, retailers, outfitters, instructors, etc. benefit from greater sales.
- More canoe sales translates into larger R&D budgets, more innovation and new designs for canoeists.
- More paddlers will result in a higher level of competition for those who are into the racing or competitive paddling side of things.
- For some it may be easier to find paddling partners.
- Opportunity for paddling related issues to be addressed is increased if sport grows, since more voices are more likely to be heard.

On the minus (detriment) side:
- Greater number of paddlers equals greater demand on paddling destinations (i.e. crowding).
- Permit system could become more prevalent.
- More paddlers means more conflict with local stakeholders regarding sensitive issues such as environment, access, parking, noise, etc.

I’m sure there are many more plusses and minuses to growing the sport. Most favourable position from my perspective is one that is balanced, with maybe only a small or moderate amount of growth from our current size.

Cheers
dave

Cheeks · Post by **Cheeks** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:00 pm

There were more cboaters because for years that was all that was available. Whitewater boating was only canoes (first wood canvas, then aluminum) until kayaks first started appearing in the 50s and 60s.

Whitewater canoeing as we know it today used to be more prevalent in the 80s and 90s if only because there were more companies putting out canoes. Dagger, Blue Hole, Mad River, etc.

Dave:

It's important to remember that for the foreseeable future, we will still be a small minority of the whitewater community. Cboaters could double or even triple and we wouldn't begin to scratch the surface of the kayakers. The cons you list would only be applicable if the entire whitewater sport was to grow, not just canoeing.

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:26 pm

I have been reading this thread and at times I want to scream. THe reasons for growth of the sport.

1. More designs and new material. It is hard for a company to invest the money needed for r&d if they cant make it back somewhat quick.

2 keep prices somewhat reasonable. with all the complants the last year about prices, i think you can figure it out.

3. New gear why would a company spend the money to make new gear if it will only sell a few.

4. And this is the most important, and is what most folks in the industry strives for Introduce people to great sport and good people involved.[/b]

Why would we not want to share this with everyone who walks the streets. THIS IS HOBBY, THis is fun

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:43 pm

In relation to what Dooley, Phil and others have mentioned we also need to realize that at the same point in time that some canoes were making radical changes to new materials, styles and disciplines... kayaks were heading off into entirely new spectrums and they took a large mass of new and old paddlers (customers) along with them. Freestyle (rodeo) and Creek Specific kayak sales alone between 1990 & 2000-ish were enormous and all the glitz, glamour, fame and frankly the "talent" went with that side of the sport along with it. Can you imagine what some truly talented and athletic people like Corran Addison, EJ, Tao, Steve Fischer, etc. could have done in a canoe? But... instead they took the smart direction for themselves and followed the $ Heck... kayak companies were pumping out so many new designs back then that the phrase "boat of the month club" came about... whereas ww-canoeing got a new boat every 2 to 3 years and the majority of them were for the freestyle realm (ala Frankie Hubbard). So... basically all of the time, money and R&D went to kayaks which didn't leave much room for innovation and change for us. We're merely a niche' aspect of a bigger overall demographic and we'll just keep taking baby steps and gradually moving forward... like the tortoise.

Post by **sbroam** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:46 pm

I cannot see how growth in our niche could possibly be a significant resource issue - even if WW OC-1ers doubled. Most new OC-1ers are going to be coming from other craft I'd think any how.

milkman · Post by **milkman** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:46 pm

I agree with Richard's number 4. The real reason most of us want to grow the sport is because we know it's fun and we want to share that fun. Sure I want the boat manufacturers to thriive, but that has nothing to do with why I try to grow the sport. It's all about wanting to share something really cool with others. People shared it with me back when I was starting out and now it's my turn.

This sport is never going to see explosive growth. Even whitewater kayaking is on the decline. But whitewater canoeing will always attract those that like to do things the hard way. Same as telemark skiing.

The greatest thing that slows down the sport's growth is lack of exposure. People are always suprised to see us coming down a river. Imagine if REI had whitewater canoes in stock and on display in their stores? Right now, most of us have to special order our boats--even paddling shops don't stock them.

fez · Post by **fez** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:08 pm

but... I don`t see a lack of new designs compared to the times that had more cboaters according to Tenzing (this was way before I started to paddle so I believe him).
Isn`t it so that in opposite there were never that much new designs and materials for every niche in cboating to be seen as nowadays?

But you`re right - for shure there a lot of things missing for the cboaters ( C1-Seats!, L`Edge in S, Taureau in longer...). and every cboater has different ideas about these musts...