"...i don't think that would go over too well with my students. "
I can tell you that it wouldn't...
I remember a couple of Tom Foster's Instructor Cert students (yes, potential instructors) moaning about "The Pond... and the Pond... and the Pond... and back to the Pond.."
Years ago when I was still racing, one of the techs at work asked about my boat, and I offered to teach him. There was a lagoon behind the lab, so I got him a slalom boat (a K-1, but that's immaterial) & took him out after work regularly and made him do exactly what I told him. He was completely naive -- never seen whitewater, let alone boating, so he just accepted flatwater practice & doing whatever I said. Pretty athletic, & learned fast & soon we did some easy whitewater drills. Finally took him to the Po for the first time, & all the rec types figured he was a new racer in town -- until he flipped & promptly swam!
One of the best things I ever did was spending a lot of time on the C&O trying to paddle straight -- and IN THE MIDDLE -- ie, not gradually drawing the boat to the side with correction strokes. You can't do it on a lake (unless you have a buoy lane) because you can't see yourself pulling to the side. Really gave me religion about energy wasted on correction.
Special stroke powers
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
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bearboater
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[quote="TheKrikkitWars"][quote="bearboater"]Not to mention that if you had a perfect forward stroke, you wouldn't have hit the rock, you'd have made the line... [/quote]
You've heard of rock grinds, and flaring right? Cos' that rock [b]is[/b] the line.
-I understood that, I paddle plastic too...
[quote="bearboater"]I don't know if I will ever understand the aversion people seem to have towards slalom racing/ers.[/quote]
I learned in a club that was big into slalom, and I don't know about in the states, but this side of the pond the slalom comunity is snarky, elitist and lacks diversity of both people and attitudes to the point that there are very few racers who also do other things in paddlesport.
I hated it with a passion.
-sorry, on behalf of the whole slalom scene. It can be like that... But, what about Tim Baillie, and Etienne Stott, they are the GB c2 and they are rad dudes, in plastic all the time. Daf Paxton, chill guy, he is in law now though, I think he was studying Tort(? I just know it's not something we have in america.) Both of the marshall Brothers, Tom Jones, those are the welsh guys I know(early to late 20'sish. I think unfortunately that the elitisim comes from the expense of the sport... It's a weird crowd for sure. Everyone has to believe that they are better than everyone else, otherwise why would you give up literally everything else for one goal. That's where I gave up, I knew I wasn't better than everyone else. Every now and again, I'd be competitive in splits, or sections. But I knew I was behind the curve, and my competition was years younger than I was. But I do see that same thing, and I was on the outside for a long time, never really sure i was on the inside... I was the guy from Montana in a pink boat. I enjoyed the racing, some of the people, but none of the scene... If you want to get an insight, the best thing I have seen that comes close it to watch the movie "Pre" A movie about Steve Prefontaine an amazing Distance runner who raced at Olympic level, and was the biggest ego in sport. But he was at the same time, a true athlete... I don't know, I can't say I don't see why people don't like it, but it's such a big part of my life, and has defined who I am as a person and as a paddler that it's hard to not promote it at every opportunity...
...Plus it has shaped my paddling, it's made me view the river differently, before I raced slalom, I never did attainments. I love attainments, before I raced slalom, I'd hit a couple eddies on the rapid, now I hit as many as I can. For me the more I dissect a rapid, the more fun, it's a challenge that can be increased every time i'm out.
[quote="marclamenace"]I see a lot of average canoeist around that works a lot on the other strokes but can't make it to the next level because they're basically floatsams. Not that I am so good myself but looking back at some videos or looking at them paddlin it seems so many just lacks speed so often to throw their moves...[/quote]
That's why I said solid, you have to be able to paddle forwards well and develop power quickly... but you don't need perfection so long as you go straight and can build speed; Other techniques demand perfection.[/quote][b][/b]
You've heard of rock grinds, and flaring right? Cos' that rock [b]is[/b] the line.
-I understood that, I paddle plastic too...
[quote="bearboater"]I don't know if I will ever understand the aversion people seem to have towards slalom racing/ers.[/quote]
I learned in a club that was big into slalom, and I don't know about in the states, but this side of the pond the slalom comunity is snarky, elitist and lacks diversity of both people and attitudes to the point that there are very few racers who also do other things in paddlesport.
I hated it with a passion.
-sorry, on behalf of the whole slalom scene. It can be like that... But, what about Tim Baillie, and Etienne Stott, they are the GB c2 and they are rad dudes, in plastic all the time. Daf Paxton, chill guy, he is in law now though, I think he was studying Tort(? I just know it's not something we have in america.) Both of the marshall Brothers, Tom Jones, those are the welsh guys I know(early to late 20'sish. I think unfortunately that the elitisim comes from the expense of the sport... It's a weird crowd for sure. Everyone has to believe that they are better than everyone else, otherwise why would you give up literally everything else for one goal. That's where I gave up, I knew I wasn't better than everyone else. Every now and again, I'd be competitive in splits, or sections. But I knew I was behind the curve, and my competition was years younger than I was. But I do see that same thing, and I was on the outside for a long time, never really sure i was on the inside... I was the guy from Montana in a pink boat. I enjoyed the racing, some of the people, but none of the scene... If you want to get an insight, the best thing I have seen that comes close it to watch the movie "Pre" A movie about Steve Prefontaine an amazing Distance runner who raced at Olympic level, and was the biggest ego in sport. But he was at the same time, a true athlete... I don't know, I can't say I don't see why people don't like it, but it's such a big part of my life, and has defined who I am as a person and as a paddler that it's hard to not promote it at every opportunity...
...Plus it has shaped my paddling, it's made me view the river differently, before I raced slalom, I never did attainments. I love attainments, before I raced slalom, I'd hit a couple eddies on the rapid, now I hit as many as I can. For me the more I dissect a rapid, the more fun, it's a challenge that can be increased every time i'm out.
[quote="marclamenace"]I see a lot of average canoeist around that works a lot on the other strokes but can't make it to the next level because they're basically floatsams. Not that I am so good myself but looking back at some videos or looking at them paddlin it seems so many just lacks speed so often to throw their moves...[/quote]
That's why I said solid, you have to be able to paddle forwards well and develop power quickly... but you don't need perfection so long as you go straight and can build speed; Other techniques demand perfection.[/quote][b][/b]
race boats are so fast, i bet its in the speed wing.
... those guys hammered out 60-mile days - in heavily loaded canoes. And whatever whitewater there was, well it wasn't simply for fun. It was a necessity. From the pictures I've seen of those multi-person canoes, most likely they didn't rely on cross strokes like we do (maybe at all). In fact I'd guess, they likely had the very best of forward stroke.TheKrikkitWars wrote: .... but WW canoeing doesn't share those roots to the same extent; It has roots in the voyguers of canada, and of course people tinkering in their sheds to improve equipment.
While I don't agree with you about the primacy of a forward stroke
I do see where you're coming from with that club setting, just not with that example.-
FullGnarlzOC
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Krikket is right - you don't need a perfect technique forward stroke to have a good foward stroke. It's always nice to keep going after that perfect onsider but not necessary.
The majority of what I see on the water are paddlers that use nothing but their onside. This is great and all, but because of it, people aren't developing confidence in their cross stroke. This is why a lot of people are only so good - without the ability to comfortably cross stroke in the meat of rapids, you'll never be able to pull off the hard moves.
Also - the more confidence, power, and reliability in a cross-stroke the less things are "onside and offside" moves. I think this is the main thing that holds back WW canoeing as whole. Not enough emphasis on the cross-stroke and being a 'dual-winged' paddler.
The majority of what I see on the water are paddlers that use nothing but their onside. This is great and all, but because of it, people aren't developing confidence in their cross stroke. This is why a lot of people are only so good - without the ability to comfortably cross stroke in the meat of rapids, you'll never be able to pull off the hard moves.
Also - the more confidence, power, and reliability in a cross-stroke the less things are "onside and offside" moves. I think this is the main thing that holds back WW canoeing as whole. Not enough emphasis on the cross-stroke and being a 'dual-winged' paddler.
http://www.gnarlzoutdoors.com
Silverbirch Canoes - North American Distributor
Email: tom@gnarlzoutdoors.com
Silverbirch Canoes - North American Distributor
Email: tom@gnarlzoutdoors.com
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bearboater
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Sir Adam
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I'll agree... and disagree.. with both of you.
From my perspective having a good cross stroke, and "non water" (rock) moves are very important to a good creeker.
To someone running rivers, slalom, or cquirt? Not so much (at least on the rock moves).
I do not think that for ALL of us there are the "two most important" strokes - it's going to depend on the type of paddling we are doing, and what we want to get out of it.
We are not all alike, the water we all paddle is different, our boats are different, and we have different things we want to get out of our time on the water. We should embrace the differences, respect them, and learn where we can.
From my perspective having a good cross stroke, and "non water" (rock) moves are very important to a good creeker.
To someone running rivers, slalom, or cquirt? Not so much (at least on the rock moves).
I do not think that for ALL of us there are the "two most important" strokes - it's going to depend on the type of paddling we are doing, and what we want to get out of it.
We are not all alike, the water we all paddle is different, our boats are different, and we have different things we want to get out of our time on the water. We should embrace the differences, respect them, and learn where we can.
Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
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marclamenace
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Yeap and for me that thread was an interesting reading... Nive to see other perspectives and cheers to Tommy for launching it up!Sir Adam wrote:We are not all alike, the water we all paddle is different, our boats are different, and we have different things we want to get out of our time on the water. We should embrace the differences, respect them, and learn where we can.
Viva la single blade... Libre!
Watch out; that river has rocks on the bottom. 
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bearboater
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