I don't like C-1ing (now Redline vs. Fink)

[sbroam]

... Frankly I don't really care for boats that I have to spend a ton of time "getting used to"... I'd just rather go out on the water and enjoy my time.
...

Bingo. I get too little time on the water for that. That's why my last Slasher got sold - when I paddled it last I realized I was only going to stay comfortable in it by paddling it regularly and there were other boats I'd rather paddle.

[Craig Smerda]

just to be clear Larry... those were all kayaks right?


http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic. ... &highlight

nice try smerda
but nope! the atom was my first (and worst) c1.

well...

Given the fading interest in the Drakkar Wheelboy and Robson Finkenmeister (I own both), and continuing strong interest in kayak conversions, we cannot expect future original C1 designs in plastic. Forget the Drakkar Fatboy.
I hope to God I am wrong - but the future of C1 Designs in plastic looks increasingly bleak .

Someone might say ' who cares?'.

Reliance on kayak designs will inherently mean the C1er will be compromising his performance on the river. This is just a matter of basic design principle. That doesn't mean the C1er won't be able to find suitable boats to convert. He is doing this now and will continue. It DOES mean that he will likely be getting sub-optimal performance - without fully realizing it . But the C1er will soldier on . I will be soldiering on.

I was really looking forward to checking out the Fatboy design.

SYOTR,

Bruce

[Larry Horne]

Hmmm...I wonder what Bruce paddles now?

oh yeah that's right. an h3255 conversion!

http://cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php? ... hlight=255

[the great gonzo]

... Frankly I don't really care for boats that I have to spend a ton of time "getting used to"... I'd just rather go out on the water and enjoy my time.
...

Bingo. I get too little time on the water for that. That's why my last Slasher got sold - when I paddled it last I realized I was only going to stay comfortable in it by paddling it regularly and there were other boats I'd rather paddle.

On the other hand, getting used to a boat is great fun, too! On my first few runs the Groove was pretty scary to paddle. I got thrashed in it all the time. But then I started to get the hang of it. Last summer on the Ottawa it was my go to boat. i still get thrashed in it regularly, but when I am on it is oh-so-sweet!!

TGG!

[Larry Horne]

Yep. I like getting trashed in playboats

Creekboats? not so much.

[davel]

I've only c-1'd my drago fish. It's been an interesting experience.

Disadvantages:

• - Never going to be as comfy as a nice butt seat
  - Much harder to make high volume, large river, moves. Just not as fast and stable as sitting with two blades.
  - Off-side is always going to be an issue, so the ability to switch is pretty important for must make ferry moves
  - Outfitting is a pain in the butt until you come up with a method to fit you
  - Gives you terrible bracing habits if you go back to kayaking (learned that one this weekend on the Moose, my shoulder hurts)

Advantages:

• - Your flatwater moves and playboating will get way way more fun
  - Your boat should be lighter than kayak outfitting if you do it right
  - You'll be better at reading water and paddling gracefully... maybe
  - Everyone you meet in C-1 is cool and willing to talk shop
  - Once you get used to proper C-1 lean, you can really attack eddy-outs in a way that kayakers dream of

The only reason people C-1, in my opinion, is if you like the feel and the style. There's tons of frustrating moments compared to kayaking, but single blade just seems right.

[we'll c]

Hi Pat,

I hear what you're saying! I started C-1 about 1.5 years ago and sometimes wonder WHY! I have a kayaking and OC-2 background, and both are easier in many ways. I liken the C-1 to telemark skiing in many ways - not easier, you're not more capable at first, and you have sore knees more than you'd like, BUT there is an appeal to the challenge of paddling this "hybrid" option, with the sporty handling and dryness of a kayak (relatively small boat), and the style and skill of a canoeist! I have on a couple of occasions got that good feeling of styling a rapid and feeling like the cool (capable?) tele guy!

The way forward includes a larger, more forgiving boat! As TGG said, call Rick and try his LL Remix 79. I have a Remix 69 which fits my size better (150 lbs soaking wet, and I am still "that way" often). It's speed and stability are excellent and it is a true "confidence boat" for me (not a chicken boat as I used to call them). I like my small Burn, but it's not nearly as fast. I have an EZ which I'm learning to play on easy stuff with, but I still feel like a cork in anything requiring actual maneuvering.

Free your heels, but don't necessarily open your boat quite yet!

Cheers,

Bob

[TheKrikkitWars]

Never going to be as comfy as a nice butt seat

Speak for yourself, at 6'3" and 70kg when I started c1ing I was unable to fit comfortably into a k1 playboat appropriate for my weight, however with a 5+in saddle I can have all day comfort in any boat (i expect that to change as I age)

Much harder to make high volume, large river, moves. Just not as fast and stable as sitting with two blades.

I disagree, I can see why you'd say that, but with your boat suitably trimmed it's more that it's different than harder.

Off-side is always going to be an issue, so the ability to switch is pretty important for must make ferry moves

Devil Spawn! You have to develop a really good cross forward stroke for those must make ferries, as you never switch hands! I'll accept that flipping to the off side is a real issue; especially in big water eddy zones and holesurfing.

Gives you terrible bracing habits if you go back to kayaking (learned that one this weekend on the Moose, my shoulder hurts

Can you explain what you mean?

The only reason people C-1, in my opinion, is if you like the feel and the style. There's tons of frustrating moments compared to kayaking, but single blade just seems right.

The reason I paddle C1 is because I'm naturally better at it; (this might be a very familiar story to some of you) I got into a C1 Session Plus after 6 months of failing to learn to cartwheel my kayak and I could instinctively cartwheel it... I've been kneeling, bailing and often flailing ever since and whilst I'm still slightly more confident running slides in a kayak, but my boof is much better in a canoe and I can soon see my C1 creeking surpassing my previous skill level in kayak.

[Pierre LaPaddelle]

Pat, try a different boat! Get in touch with Pierre La Paddelle, he is in Williams Lake and has a sweet Remix 79 for sale that's already outfiutted as a C1.

Yo Pat

Too bad the May-long on the Nicola is a scratch -- I was gonna bring the R-79 down for you to try.

All the stuff in this thread is worth reading --lotsa good points of view.

My 2c (CAD): I remember how shaky I felt when I dropped down from the Viper 12 to the Ocoee. The spirit of your comments above fit that situation. Then, suddenly, (last May-long, running the Nicola at 60 m3/s,) I suddenly realized I was comfortable, not brilliant to be sure, but at least feeling steady.

Starting last fall with C-1ing in the Reflux, I felt all the same jitters again -- and that was on easy Class II. This spring, I jumped right onto the Chucks in the C-1, and felt fine. Now, I'm ready to sell the 79, and try something smaller.

Morals of the story:

1. Start easy -- gentle warm water, with a BIG boat. Nuthin wrong with a slightly higher seat -- stability is in the paddle, not the hull.

2. Be patient -- the comfort level WILL grow.

3. Time invested in outfitting is how we combat the winter blahs in BC, if we can't afford to paddle in Mexico.

4. Ibuprofen is the paddler's friend. So is rum.

Above all, I believe if we challenge ourselves by wearing skirts, and dinking around in silly little kayak hulls, it will make better OC-1 boaters of us!

Hope to see you soon -- 'we'll c' and I are always looking for folks to dabble with.

Rick

[yarnellboat]

Thanks everyone.

Yeah, maybe 2 flips isn't bad, but although I considered this my first real river run, I have been in C-1s before in the pool and on the river, so I wasn't brand new to the feeling. I was just disappointed by how much I found myself wishing I was in my open boat. And I didn't run hard lines, I took chicken routes and went straight through anything approaching class III. Sucking at telemarking was all fun, sucking at C-1 is more frustrating.

My first C-1 is a Score, going from its harder edges and slicier ends, I thought the volume of the Redline would be more predictable and comfortable. I believe their widths are about the same, and I had to jerk with their cockpits about the same amount.

Reviews of the Redline as a C-1 were pretty good, and yes, selection around here is limited. I got it as a river runner and playboat, I didn't want a big creeker that felt the same as an open boat, I figured if I have a C-1 in the quiver, it might as well be something different that I can learn to squirt the ends in (haven't learned that yet, not enough confidence or comfort, and I don't know much about playboating).

I'm about 5'10" and 230lbs, with a lot of that weight in my big thighs apparently - I never find somebody else's bulkhead that I can fit into for a demo. I tried to get into an H3 C-1, but couldn't get under that rim either.

Not a crisis, I did get into C-1 mostly as curiosity and to make me a better open boater, and so I could entertain myself on the class II runs my wife would paddle solo on.

I'm not ready to walk away yet, just not as excited as I hoped I'd be.

Rick, I hope we can eventually get togther to try each other boats (maybe you'd like the Redline or Score?), but I'll bet I won't fit your outfitting!

The benefits of C-1ing only seem to apply if you're confident enough to paddle your usual lines, and comfortable enough to stay in the boat - at this point I have to get out more often to stretch my feet than I would to empty my open boat.

That was my overall feeling of the run - that it was kinda a waste of my [extremely limited] paddling time, since I would've played a lot more in my open boat.

Cheers, Pat.

[philcanoe]

Must of been nice to not suck...[sarcasm]

• 

[/sarcasm] right off the bat in your OhC1,

[davel]

Never going to be as comfy as a nice butt seat

Speak for yourself, at 6'3" and 70kg when I started c1ing I was unable to fit comfortably into a k1 playboat appropriate for my weight, however with a 5+in saddle I can have all day comfort in any boat (i expect that to change as I age)

Much harder to make high volume, large river, moves. Just not as fast and stable as sitting with two blades.

I disagree, I can see why you'd say that, but with your boat suitably trimmed it's more that it's different than harder.

Off-side is always going to be an issue, so the ability to switch is pretty important for must make ferry moves

Devil Spawn! You have to develop a really good cross forward stroke for those must make ferries, as you never switch hands! I'll accept that flipping to the off side is a real issue; especially in big water eddy zones and holesurfing.

Gives you terrible bracing habits if you go back to kayaking (learned that one this weekend on the Moose, my shoulder hurts

Can you explain what you mean?

The only reason people C-1, in my opinion, is if you like the feel and the style. There's tons of frustrating moments compared to kayaking, but single blade just seems right.

The reason I paddle C1 is because I'm naturally better at it; (this might be a very familiar story to some of you) I got into a C1 Session Plus after 6 months of failing to learn to cartwheel my kayak and I could instinctively cartwheel it... I've been kneeling, bailing and often flailing ever since and whilst I'm still slightly more confident running slides in a kayak, but my boof is much better in a canoe and I can soon see my C1 creeking surpassing my previous skill level in kayak.

As far as your size... that's fantastic it worked out that way for you. Could be a boat fit issue as far as the playboats you chose? The big guys I know have issues fitting into their empty kayak hulls as c-1. Guys with big feet could find c-1ing more comfy.

As far as suitably trimmed, I'll agree with you. But considering the 6 ft length or less of many modern playboats combined with dynamic C-1 paddle stroke, you're going to have issues pearling or dipping your bow when you're trying to make a big ferry. I prefer river running in short playboats, so this makes large water ferries more difficult compared to the largely static and stable kayak strokes.

Haha, devil spawn . You basically hit it on the head. I prefer larger water and find it difficult to eddy out with speed on the offside. There's some manky places where you're going to be able to predict where you'll need a brace (mostly creeking) and the ability to switch onsides at the start of a rapid is pretty important for a safe run in a no-flip situation.

I find with a c-1 you can rock a high brace much safer with T grip because you can rotate the boat so much. I threw a terrible highbrace on double-drop on the moose. It puts a lot more stress on your shoulder when your butt is attached to the seat.

Sounds like you agree with my reasoning... you like the style and feel. Props to you for pushin the envelope on your knees, it makes a more interesting day for sure.

[yarnellboat]

Here's the specs of the Redline, I figured 25" was OK as minimum width in this sort of boat:

http://www.eddyflower.com/ShowBoat.aspx ... =359#/home

I never really did stink to the point of frustration in an OC1 - I'd done many miles of wilderness tripping, so I was comfortable enough to have fun right away when I started with ww solo.

Pat.

[Pierre LaPaddelle]

Here's the specs of the Redline, I figured 25" was OK as minimum width in this sort of boat. . .

Hmm-m, yes, for a playboat, maybe. But a playboat ain't the most stable platform for getting used to a new type of boat. 25" is pretty skinny, especially for a 200+ lb. paddler.

The R-79 is around 27" -- almost as wide as the Outrage (@ 4" waterline). Among the other C-1 or conversion hulls recommended by our c-boats colleagues, the L Burn is 26+", the Finki is 28", the Mystic is 26", and the ol' Atom is 26". Sure, the various hull shapes affect the stability, but an extra inch of width overall makes a big difference!

I'm guessing if you start out in a bigger hull -- creeker or river-runner -- THEN go back to the Redline, it'll feel much friendlier.

IDEA: Mike M. (Abby-Mission) is interested in sampling some C-1s, and Bob (K'loops) is always up for a test-paddle. Why not we all get together some Saturday and try each other boats on an easy stretch -- maybe the Coquihalla or the Coldwater when they drop back down.

I'm betting I can make the Redline fall over just as quickly as you can. But then I've had lotsa practice falling over lately. That's why I wear a skirt!

[marclamenace]

I'm guessing if you start out in a bigger hull -- creeker or river-runner -- THEN go back to the Redline, it'll feel much friendlier.

Yeap, most definitely. I had the same experience converting a perception amp as my first C1. Later on I outfitted a remix, learned and had a lot of fun out of it then back in the amp I could paddle it with relative ease, and begin to learn to sink ends and pivot etc, which I just could not do in the remix.

from OC1 to a full-volume C1 like remix or cascade fink burn etc. you will have to learn to deal with low saddle and a relatively less stable boat, perfect your rolling and stop pry'n that stern! You will definitely have to develop a better forward stroke, that's efficient to move and drive the boat at a same time or else you won't be able to go where you want to (floatsam syndrome!) Get better with offside strokes and see how different a C1 feels on eddy peel out and all the other river moves.

From a full volume C1 to a small playboat then comes another learning curve for surfing sinking ends and throwing all the moves. Dealing with sideway lean has to be acquired as now you have to see about back and forward leans at the same time!

So it's all in good fun but one thing at a time I guess