Thanks to Dave Miller I have a Fanatic (F1) mold. I also have Charlie Walbridge's book, but I still have questions. After I lay up both sides, do I put the mold back together to cure as one piece, or do I let them cure separately and put the mold back together when I seam the boat. I will also need to build a cockpit rim. I have had success on other boats using the method posted on this forum but what about recessed rim (flush with the deck)? This would better protect the skirt. Also, how do I go about handling royalties on the design? If anyone is interested in using the mold, or if anyone wants to help and we can build two boats, just let me know.
Thanks for the help,
Paul
pevans@email.msmary.edu
Boat Building Question
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
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muskrat
you need to let them cure seperately but in the same area so as to cure as close to the same as possible. when the layup is cured enough to trim you need to trim to the edge of the flange. this is so that when you bolt the halves back togethor you do not have any rough areas to hold the mold apart. the overhanging edges tend to curl up and it always is in the wrong direction.after you have reached a good cure then bolt the halves togethor and seam the inside. after aquiring a good cure unbolt and pop from the mold. you then need to trim off the flange area. always remember to wear a resperator when doing any sanding or resin work. if you are not used to useing the resins and fabrics you will need to adjust your resin mix to a very slow mix or you may find yourself in trouble. the resins do not wait for anyone when it is time for it to go off. good luck and if you can find someone that has done a boat that can help you will be much better off.
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Built A. Few
I seam outside of the mold almost exclusively.
I choose to pop the parts (hull and deck) after a full cure, and then trim and seam outside the mold.
Mostly, whether you seam inside the mold or not depends on the construction and condition of the particular mold. Some molds are better for seaming before popping. Others are not.
Heavy molds, or those with small openings in the deck, are hard to work with when "loaded" with parts. Parts from warped or damaged molds are sometimes harder to seam while still in the mold.
Seaming out of the mold usually takes more time because of the tedious taping required to join the trimmed parts. Use reinforced packing tape strips, applied perpendicular to the seam line.
Because you are going to have to eyeball and handle every inch of the joint when applying the tape, I think you get a more solid boat after the seam is constructed. A uniform, flush, and solid joint is going to be much stronger than one with gaps, a warp, or untrue edges.
Trimming is also a little easier after the parts have been popped, since power tools can be used without risking damage to the mold. Repairing a damaged mold will take much more time than is saved by taping in the mold.
Careful trimming is required in any case to get the edges as smooth and square as possible for joining. It just depends on how good you handle power tools, and who owns the mold!
Finally, I always want to carefully inspect the boat parts before seaming. This is only possible after popping them out of the mold. If the lay-up is defective, why spend the considerable effort to trim and seam? A laminate with pinholes, or that didn't cure properly, or that has an unsightly imperfection, is simply not worth spending the considerable additional time required to complete the boat.
I usually want to manufacture a replacement part before proceeding with the boat construction. Fact is, laying up the deck and hull is the easiest and fastest part of building a boat. I want to get it right, then go ahead.
Although this never happened to me, I have to wonder if seaming before popping is such a good idea if one of the parts does not release properly?
Finally, if you are building multiple boats, it is easier to pop the parts, rewax, and make another part. Once the layups are completed for two or more boats, put the mold away, and continue the building process.
Note: When seaming outside the mold, the taped boat must be handled very carefully until the seam has been laid and fully cured. Use slings to hold the boat while seaming. If seaming inside the mold, such care in handling is much less critical.
As you can see, the most important part when building a composite boat is...another builder with plenty of experience!
Mostly, whether you seam inside the mold or not depends on the construction and condition of the particular mold. Some molds are better for seaming before popping. Others are not.
Heavy molds, or those with small openings in the deck, are hard to work with when "loaded" with parts. Parts from warped or damaged molds are sometimes harder to seam while still in the mold.
Seaming out of the mold usually takes more time because of the tedious taping required to join the trimmed parts. Use reinforced packing tape strips, applied perpendicular to the seam line.
Because you are going to have to eyeball and handle every inch of the joint when applying the tape, I think you get a more solid boat after the seam is constructed. A uniform, flush, and solid joint is going to be much stronger than one with gaps, a warp, or untrue edges.
Trimming is also a little easier after the parts have been popped, since power tools can be used without risking damage to the mold. Repairing a damaged mold will take much more time than is saved by taping in the mold.
Careful trimming is required in any case to get the edges as smooth and square as possible for joining. It just depends on how good you handle power tools, and who owns the mold!
Finally, I always want to carefully inspect the boat parts before seaming. This is only possible after popping them out of the mold. If the lay-up is defective, why spend the considerable effort to trim and seam? A laminate with pinholes, or that didn't cure properly, or that has an unsightly imperfection, is simply not worth spending the considerable additional time required to complete the boat.
I usually want to manufacture a replacement part before proceeding with the boat construction. Fact is, laying up the deck and hull is the easiest and fastest part of building a boat. I want to get it right, then go ahead.
Although this never happened to me, I have to wonder if seaming before popping is such a good idea if one of the parts does not release properly?
Finally, if you are building multiple boats, it is easier to pop the parts, rewax, and make another part. Once the layups are completed for two or more boats, put the mold away, and continue the building process.
Note: When seaming outside the mold, the taped boat must be handled very carefully until the seam has been laid and fully cured. Use slings to hold the boat while seaming. If seaming inside the mold, such care in handling is much less critical.
As you can see, the most important part when building a composite boat is...another builder with plenty of experience!
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Built A. Few, Too
You need one, or all, of the following books:
Building FRG Canoes by Alan Byde. The Alexandria Public Library had a copy in the past.
Bill McKnights book, whose title I cannot recall. (My copy was borrowed...and not returned.) It was something like "Building Fiberglass Kayaks and Canoes."
McKnight's illustrations are invaluable to an inexperienced builder. Resin control in a hand layup is easy once you have seen a picture of how it should look! Contact McKnight directly if a used copy is not available.
All titles are out of print, but worth getting hold of anyway. Ask around.
You already have Charlie's book. Reread it a few more times. He has published difficult to follow instructions for years. The information is in there; it is just not clear the first dozen or so times it is read. But he is the only one that has taken the time to make the knowledge available, so study and keep a copy in your shop. Consider making loose-leaf copies of the pages that deal with actual building technique. Resins and fibers tend to get on everything when building.
Once you have finished the layup of a hull or deck, let it sit undisturbed in its mold. Watch for puddles in the bottom, and drips along the sides. Correct such resin problems as needed with your squeegie.
Otherwise leave the parts alone. You don't want to move the mold halves until the parts have cured completely.
The first time you build, consider making only one hull or one deck on the first day. That way, the single part can cure over night, and be moved out of the way while you layup the other half of the boat. You will learn a lot with your first piece that will help make the second piece much better.
With only limited building experience under your belt, I would skip trimming the edges until the cure is complete. Things get messy when handling a partially cured laminate.
I assume you are not using kevlar layers in your first boat. It is best to stick with less expensive cloths until you are more experienced.
Glass is translucent when wetted out. Kevlar is opaque. You will need to see what you are doing with the resin in each layer until you become experienced.
Without the Kevlar layers, trimming a fully cured part is not that difficult, but cutting a cured laminate with multiple kevlar layers is a matter for special tools. (Cutting such a layup while still green isn't all that easy, either!)
Royalties are a matter of honor. Contact the designer. Davey Hearn is in your area, and in my experience, an excellent person in this regard. Get it right with Davey, and that is all there is to it.
Bill McKnights book, whose title I cannot recall. (My copy was borrowed...and not returned.) It was something like "Building Fiberglass Kayaks and Canoes."
McKnight's illustrations are invaluable to an inexperienced builder. Resin control in a hand layup is easy once you have seen a picture of how it should look! Contact McKnight directly if a used copy is not available.
All titles are out of print, but worth getting hold of anyway. Ask around.
You already have Charlie's book. Reread it a few more times. He has published difficult to follow instructions for years. The information is in there; it is just not clear the first dozen or so times it is read. But he is the only one that has taken the time to make the knowledge available, so study and keep a copy in your shop. Consider making loose-leaf copies of the pages that deal with actual building technique. Resins and fibers tend to get on everything when building.
Once you have finished the layup of a hull or deck, let it sit undisturbed in its mold. Watch for puddles in the bottom, and drips along the sides. Correct such resin problems as needed with your squeegie.
Otherwise leave the parts alone. You don't want to move the mold halves until the parts have cured completely.
The first time you build, consider making only one hull or one deck on the first day. That way, the single part can cure over night, and be moved out of the way while you layup the other half of the boat. You will learn a lot with your first piece that will help make the second piece much better.
With only limited building experience under your belt, I would skip trimming the edges until the cure is complete. Things get messy when handling a partially cured laminate.
I assume you are not using kevlar layers in your first boat. It is best to stick with less expensive cloths until you are more experienced.
Glass is translucent when wetted out. Kevlar is opaque. You will need to see what you are doing with the resin in each layer until you become experienced.
Without the Kevlar layers, trimming a fully cured part is not that difficult, but cutting a cured laminate with multiple kevlar layers is a matter for special tools. (Cutting such a layup while still green isn't all that easy, either!)
Royalties are a matter of honor. Contact the designer. Davey Hearn is in your area, and in my experience, an excellent person in this regard. Get it right with Davey, and that is all there is to it.
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BB II
McKnight Boat Building Book
The KeelHaulers have a copy of McKnight's "Build Your Own Kakak or Canoe" in their club library.
http://keelhauler.org/khcc/khclib.htm
http://keelhauler.org/khcc/khclib.htm
First boat, cockpit rim
Good luck on your first boat. Seaming in the mold is great, but if you haven't built a boat before, then go ahead an pop the two halves, tape it together and seam it out of the mold - at least for the first one.
There is a great little trick to trimming a boat in the mold - If you catch it at the right time. If you catch the resin after it has gelled, but before it has fully set, then you can take a razor knife or linoleum hook (as suggested by Wallbridge) and trim the while thing in 5 - 10 minutes. Even Kevlar will cut just like butter - The knife needs to be SHARP.
If the layers start pulling apart, stop and wait a bit longer. If you can't cut it easily, then you will have to wait until cured and cut it out of the mold.
The easiest thing I have found for cockpit rims is to use cloth cut on a bias - it will conform to just about any shape you need - If you are looking for a recessed rim and the mold is not built that way, I guess you could use a larger size of tubing for the rim mold than normal, then instead of gluing it to the rim area, glue it about 1/2 way down the opening - this will form a small recess - Just be careful not to make the cockpit area too small to spread your knees out.
Fred
There is a great little trick to trimming a boat in the mold - If you catch it at the right time. If you catch the resin after it has gelled, but before it has fully set, then you can take a razor knife or linoleum hook (as suggested by Wallbridge) and trim the while thing in 5 - 10 minutes. Even Kevlar will cut just like butter - The knife needs to be SHARP.
If the layers start pulling apart, stop and wait a bit longer. If you can't cut it easily, then you will have to wait until cured and cut it out of the mold.
The easiest thing I have found for cockpit rims is to use cloth cut on a bias - it will conform to just about any shape you need - If you are looking for a recessed rim and the mold is not built that way, I guess you could use a larger size of tubing for the rim mold than normal, then instead of gluing it to the rim area, glue it about 1/2 way down the opening - this will form a small recess - Just be careful not to make the cockpit area too small to spread your knees out.
Fred
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Home Builder
Recessed Cockpit
If the plug that was used to build your mold did not have a recess for the cockpit rim, then modifying the boats from the mold to custom install one now will be a lot of work.
And for an inexperienced builder, the results might not be satisfactory in terms of functionality or appearance.
Considering the time it will take to make a custom cockpit modification for a single boat, or to make a recessed rim mold that will fit the deck of the boats that your mold produces, you could make a dozen sprayskirts to use when the non-recessed rim wears a hole in yours.
Better to spend the extra time making a mold for a standard cockpit rim that fits the deck of the boats from your Fanatic mold. Don't you wish the mold you own came with a cockpit mold?
One day, when you decide to make a plug from your Fanatic mold, plan on making the cockpit recessed on the new design. Until then, enjoy paddling what you build.
And for an inexperienced builder, the results might not be satisfactory in terms of functionality or appearance.
Considering the time it will take to make a custom cockpit modification for a single boat, or to make a recessed rim mold that will fit the deck of the boats that your mold produces, you could make a dozen sprayskirts to use when the non-recessed rim wears a hole in yours.
Better to spend the extra time making a mold for a standard cockpit rim that fits the deck of the boats from your Fanatic mold. Don't you wish the mold you own came with a cockpit mold?
One day, when you decide to make a plug from your Fanatic mold, plan on making the cockpit recessed on the new design. Until then, enjoy paddling what you build.
Couple of other tips. If you catch the layup before full cure and are lucky enough to trim it with a sheetrock knife(BUY LOTSA NEW BLADES and use them, a second knife ready to go helps) don't get to concernd about getting the trim right down on the mold. If you are a little fat(some sticking up above the mold by an !/8"or so) don't worry, you will get that stuff after it has cured before you pop it. Use a surfoam and/ or wood rasp to get flush with the mold after full cure. Be careful not to dig into the mold itself. I have never been a big fan of power tools for this job, so leave the beltsander in the cabinet. This will make the seams nice and straight and with little or no gaps when taping the 2 halves together. Seam outisde the mold. Back in the 60's it was more common (and costly) to make molds with big clamping lips around the outside on both halves, so boats got seamed in the mold. If this is your first attempt at boat building , I can only hope that you never have the pleasure of a stuck boat when popping the 2 halves apart. It is ugly. Also, before starting the layup,when you think you have waxed the mold enough, put another coat on.
When you tape the 2 halves, make sure you line up the edges inside and out as you go, working from the cockpit towards the ends. A helper is a big plus. Put some good tension (pull it hard) as you apply(drape) the tape to the other half. Use lots of tape. Space the tape 1" apart and run an outside seam, end to end to hold any resin the may run thru while the boat is on its side. I have always found it to go smoother if you have someone tearing off pieces of tape and placing them in front of you so you can just pick them up as you go. Even better is a third person to apply the tape while you hold the 2 edges flush from the inside and outside. Strips should be 6 to 8" long.
When you get this far in your project, put out some more questions, there are some little things to help with appying the seams, inside and out.
Certainly seems like you have tapped into a lot of experince here on this site. Between all of us, we could probably write another book. Hope this gets you going. The results are very gratifying, but take your time and ask lots of questions. Remember that the finished product will be the only one like it on the water.
SYOTW, CRod
When you tape the 2 halves, make sure you line up the edges inside and out as you go, working from the cockpit towards the ends. A helper is a big plus. Put some good tension (pull it hard) as you apply(drape) the tape to the other half. Use lots of tape. Space the tape 1" apart and run an outside seam, end to end to hold any resin the may run thru while the boat is on its side. I have always found it to go smoother if you have someone tearing off pieces of tape and placing them in front of you so you can just pick them up as you go. Even better is a third person to apply the tape while you hold the 2 edges flush from the inside and outside. Strips should be 6 to 8" long.
When you get this far in your project, put out some more questions, there are some little things to help with appying the seams, inside and out.
Certainly seems like you have tapped into a lot of experince here on this site. Between all of us, we could probably write another book. Hope this gets you going. The results are very gratifying, but take your time and ask lots of questions. Remember that the finished product will be the only one like it on the water.
SYOTW, CRod