rolling an open versus closed canoe

[Bill]

I've paddled C1 for five years, and have always had a reliable and quick roll. I just bought a Prelude, open boat, and my roll is taking me 2-3 tries and is very slow. What bad habits have I developed in my C1 that I need to discard for the open boat? Thanks for your suggestions.

[Logan]

Hi. I find that when switching from my showbiz to my quake and back that I have to be much more aware of a deliberate hip snap in the quake. I think I can use muscle on the paddle or weight shifting towards the stern in the showbiz, and while these things work (particularly with my back deck roll), its' still sloppy technique.

I also think size of the boat is a determining factor in how fast the roll can be. I was almost immediately faster on the roll in my showbiz than I ever was in the open boat even after three years in it - width of the planing surface of the hull.

Hope this helps!

Logan

[Jim]

For me, the OC roll is much slower than the C1 roll. For a long time I had to keep them seperate: I rolled the OC on 1 side and the C1 on the other side. The timing was different and I was so "programmed" into my OC roll (which I learned first) that I could not change speeds and make it work. So, for me it was 2 different speeds, 1 on each side of my boat.

Good luck,

Jim

[the great gonzo]

Bill,

I am definitely slower rolling my Prelude than I am rolling my C1's.
But there is also a huge difference in my rolling speed between my various C1. The Delirious is definitely the fastest to roll, followed by the Atom and the Finkenmeister.
I think there are three major factors that affect the speed and ease of rolling a boat:

1) Hull Type and shape. Open boats are harder. To me it also appears as if the higher the secondary stability of a boat, the harder they are to roll. Kinda like the harder they go over , the harder they come back up .

2) Saddle height. The higher the saddle, the harder to roll. My Delirious for instance haqs a 6"saddle, not very comfy, but very fast to roll. My Atom has a 7.5" saddle an the FM a 9 " one. the Atom is a little easier to roll. The Prelude has a saddle thatb is about 10" and is the hardest to roll.

3) Tightness of the outfitting. My Delirious (easiest to roll) is a tight fit, a with the hip belt tightened I am extremely well connected. The Atom (thigh straps) and the FM bulkhead, no straps) are similar,still very tight, but just a tad looser fit than the Delirious. In the Prelude however I am definitely the loosest, no hip pads and I feel that he factory saddle is slightly too low at the back. When I was upside down in it with the original outfitting, my bum came off the saddle and I had a tendency to slide out of the outfitting and had really bad contact to the boat,which did not help my roll.
I have built up the back of my saddle by 3 inches and this prevents me from sliding out when upside down. This helped improve my roll in the Prelude tremendously.

martin

[sbroam]

The open boat roll is slower. The mechanics are similar, though I find I focus on different parts depending on the boat. Outfitting matters more to me in an open boat, though determination and good form will allow you to roll even a sloppy boat.

C-1 - drive your head down on the shaft, bring it forward and across - if you were to follow my nose from set up to end of the roll, my nose would describe a great circle, starting and stopping on my deck. Do it hard and fast, like it is another stroke, in fact I frequently find myself finishing a roll right on top of my next forward or cross forward stroke.

Open boat - really crank with your legs and don't bring your head over to soon, keep your head low and wipe your nose on both gunwales. I tend to "sit up" a little later - a pause with T-grip and nose over the offside gunwale while the boat settles under me. A bit slower and more deliberate, poor form will hurt you more. Now to deal with a swamped boat... [Still beats swimming!] That's why open boating for me is a game called "keep it dry".

[OC]

I think the speed is a major factor- OCs don't respond as quickly and the roll is more of an extended grunt and force than a quick snap as in a C1.

The best remedy is to emphasize legs and hips, bring head up last and wipe the gunwales and across to other side before bringing up. Keep rolling until the end and give the OC time to react...

[Craig Smerda]

The OC roll can be a bit frustrating even for C1er's who nail it everytime. (Remember... C1er's and Yaker's learn the roll early on in the game... canoeists are "masters" of escape and self-rescue)

Here a some things to consider. (1) OC has higher "open" sides which act as scoops to catch the water on the way back to upright. (2) The ends of an OC are "typically" higher than the middle. This increases the fullcrum height. (often people have to do a sweep to bring the boat to a stable underwater position) (3) Outfitting in most OC's is poor at best to do a roll or hold a paddler in the boat while upside down.

Practice tips to work with. (1) Always practice the roll falling over from your offside. This helps you learn proper setup and mechanics. It is very unlikely that if you have a good brace that you will flip on your onside... so don't practice it from there. (2) Let your torso, head and paddle "come to the surface". Once you are back on your onside wait a few seconds before going for it. I see a lot of folks who are trying to roll without the paddle ever coming near the surface. (3) Play... theres nothing that helps you roll more often and quickly than this.... it doesn't need to be anything big, and if there is a nice safe pool behind it... go for it. (4) Outfit your boat to do the job. If you plan to be upside down now and then set the boat up accordingly. Double strap setups from Nothwater and MikeYee work fine when set up agressively. (5) Have fun..... there's NO reason why you have to swim out.... even if you want to.

See you on the "flip" side!
Craig

[Jim]

Craig posted some great recommendations. He wrote "Always practice the roll falling over from your offside" which reminded me of another consideration. OCs with lots of rocker may not roll upside down, or they may need some assistance getting there.

For example, my Howler has so much rocker that it rolls onto its side and then stays there. It does not go upside down, so my only option is to switch the paddle over the necessary side and roll up (which is easy from that position).

Jim

[Larry Horne]

When my roll is sucking, I focus on keeping my forehead on my shaft hand, and i mean keeping it there. It forces you to bring your head up late, and I think it makes you use your lower body more and less of the paddle.

[Cone Bone]

I am also a proponent of keeping my head on my shaft hand. It helps my overall form, and it definitely protects my shoulder from damage.

[Craig Smerda]

.

[PatrickOC1]

I had a fairly easy time learning to roll in my esquif Nitro when I started paddling a year ago, that boat seemed to roll very easily for me even though it was way to big for me.....Low brace keep your head down all that which has been repeated a hundred times.... Outfitted a Riot Disco as a c-1 a few months back and that things rolls so easily using the same technique for the "nitro roll" so much faster too, recently sold the nitro and picked up a prelude and am 0-3 for rolling the thing I think the big flat planing hulls (nitro+disco) make it easier to roll, I feel like once ive got the boat righted I can flop around all willy-nilly till im situated again, unlike the prelude where I have to always have the next move (brace?) planned out (hard to do while inverted)

[KNeal]

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[Pierre LaPaddelle]

The open boat roll is slower. The mechanics are similar, though I find I focus on different parts depending on the boat. Outfitting matters more to me in an open boat. . .

One reason the OC roll is slower is that the boat scoops water as it comes upright. As the boat rolls from upside down to sideways, then to fully upright, the water caught in the boat has to slosh from one side to the other.

Here's where outfitting comes in -- long float bags, and a solid saddle act as dams to prevent the water from sloshing from one side to t'other. Cutting holes in the saddle allows the water slosh more quickly from side to side.

(Oar sew it seams 2 me.)

Rick

[philcanoe]

The open boat roll is slower. The mechanics are similar, though I find I focus on different parts depending on the boat. Outfitting matters more to me in an open boat. . .

One reason the OC roll is slower is that the boat scoops water as it comes upright. As the boat rolls from upside down to sideways, then to fully upright, the water caught in the boat has to slosh from one side to the other.

Here's where outfitting comes in -- long float bags, and a solid saddle act as dams to prevent the water from sloshing from one side to t'other. Cutting holes in the saddle allows the water slosh more quickly from side to side.

(Oar sew it seams 2 me.)

Rick

.....or could it be the size of the papers?