What next?

[cheajack]

Where is the Big Dog? Workable length, made of plastic, adjustable ready to go outfitting. Priced right on WRW. Seems like it fits most of these posts except the short tandem.

[Craig Smerda]

I canoe alot, but am pretty much a newbi when it come to the white water end of it. As someone just looking into this end of the sport and not knowing the ins and outs of how much it cost to manufacture a boat my first thought was the price. To me the future of the sport is not only the material but the cost of the canoes. You can buy a brand new kayak for $800 - $1200 roughly. Tons of choices available. Now look at canoes, you can't come close to touching a new white water boat for $1200. To me very tuff to grow the sport when the average new outfitted boat is $1500 or more. The "next step" to me is find a way to bring the price of the boats to a more competative price to get people into the sport. More people into the sport will gain interest in manufactures finding a reason to pursue "whats next".

A big reason the kayak manufacturers can sell boats for less is that from a $50-100K investment in R&D and tooling they can anticipate to sell several thousands of kayaks... not hundreds. That's a big part of the price deviation from my perspective. Similar costs + less consumers = higher per unit costs. If there were 100,000 open canoeists regularly paddling whitewater worldwide and buying boats every three to four years it might be a different story for us. Frankly kayak prices haven't really increased very much since I got involved with the sport in 1996.

Here's an interesting read on what I would venture to guess is the most popular plastic C1 ever sold from Paddler Magazine...

"In December 1996, Joe Pulliam of Harriman, Tenn.'s Dagger Canoe Co. told me, "It's tough to justify spending money for specialized C-1 designs, and that's too bad." He then added it costs up to $70,000 to develop a boat from start to finish and, "you have to sell a fair number to make that up." Well, it seems like he was blowing some necessary corporate smoke up our collective sprayskirts. Dagger has indeed come out with a new, plastic C-1 playboat called the Atom, and the company should be applauded for its move. I tested it on a variety of Maine rivers, from the Penobscot to the Mattawamkeag, and found it to work well in a number of situations.

The first thing I noticed about it was its stability. Maybe I've been paddling too many converted K-1s, but it felt great to be back on a flat, wide C-1. These hull features are not only visually striking, but you can feel these qualities on the water. On waves, the Atom cuts back fast like the RPM (which I converted to a C-1), and like the RPM, the Atom has a short, slightly dropped stern which makes it carve like a banshee. It also has a nicely upturned bow, which keeps it from pearling. The second thing I noticed is that it's fast--especially for such a short boat. It carves easily from eddy to eddy, but it felt edgy, like a race boat, and in that regard it might not be a good choice for a beginner. It reminded me a lot of the Viper C-1 except it is shorter and has more rocker. (After I unpacked it and had it laying upside down in my office, a fellow C-1er glanced at the boat on the floor and said, "What'd they do, make a plastic Viper?")

Indeed, the middle two-thirds are rather Viperesque--but it differs in length and width (9'8" long, 26" wide). The volume is 66 gallons, six less than the RPM. It was designed by C-1 paddlers Steve Scarborough and Andy Bridge, who have proven they know how to design a fast C-1. The Atom's cockpit size and shape is exactly like Dagger's other C-1, the Cascade, so the same skirt will fit both boats. The ABS-molded pedestal and thigh-strap system is also identical to that of the Cascade. And, thank God, the Atom does sport a drain plug.

On one local river, the Kenduskeag, at a medium level, the Atom felt like a short race boat. At the end of the run, in a short, steep rodeo hole, the Atom performed great enders, as well as a handful of wave and rocket moves. On the other hand, 360s and vertical rodeo moves were more difficult because once the boat starts backsurfing, the edgy, low-rockered stern gets snagged by upstream water. In general, the Atom does not even like to side-surf. This feature may not be great for rodeo points, but it certainly takes the worry out of getting stuck in holes. I also ran the Mattawamkeag River at a whomping 10,500 cfs, a run with big waves, whirlpool-swirling eddy lines, massive exploding peaks and wave trains that end up in the largest haystacks I've ever seen. In the combat zone, the Atom was surprisingly stable. Again, she's edgy so I chose to keep my paddle in the water, and when I paddled hard the Atom responded like a rocket ship-- fast and powerful. The Mattawamkeag at this level can be a scary run and there were plenty of times when I thought I was going over, but with aggressive strokes, the Atom remained upright throughout the day, a testament to its solid secondary stability. In the haystacks, the Atom shot like an arrow, sometimes right off the top of waves, sometimes piercing through them. It was here that one of my kayaking friends called it the "Atom Smasher." At times, the Atom felt like a squirt cruiser. During stern squirts on strong eddy lines, it hung, bobbing up and down controllably on its wide midsection. On large surf waves, hand-only cutbacks were easy, and even on swirly eddy lines, the kind with disappearing and reappearing whirlpools, the Atom pivoted into and out of the current like a champ.

Atom Specs
Length: 9'6"
Width: 26"
Weight: 43 lbs.
Volume: 66 gal.
Material: Polyethylene
Paddler Weight: 115-215 lbs.
MSRP: $889
Info.: (423) 882-0404

The last part of my testing was on the Dryway of the Penobscot's Ripogenus Gorge. This seldom-run, technical overflow from the dam isn't the kind of river the Atom was designed for--it's steep, busy, and at this level, simply full of too much water (not to mention that the Dryway dumps into the Rip Gorge which makes that part of the run a very healthy 5,600 cfs). Because I was scared to death and paddling aggressively, I never had to roll--a testament to the fact that the Atom responds well to in-your-face, aggressive paddle strokes, especially when the going gets tough. On numerous occasions the Atom launched itself off the tops of haystacks, clearing the surface of the water entirely. My friend said it looked great. I was terrified, but relieved that the Atom and I had survived and had done so in style. The Atom may not be the best beginner boat on the market, but it's perfect for seasoned C-1ers who have owned and loved glass race boats and have always wished for a shorter, more rockered version in plastic. It is a boat for the C-1er who likes an effective edge and knows how to use it.

--John Frachella"

That was the last commercially sucessful C1 we've seen since.

Hey, what about sealed bulkheads front and back of the saddle to avoid the need for airbags while I am thinking of stuff....

http://www.compositecreations.ca/products.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; the price is in Canadian $'s btw.

[Smurfwarrior]

Craig, from the bait you've tossed about in previous posts, your pilgrimage to the land of Kaz and the hinting direction your posts seem to lean on this thread, just go ahead and show us the C1 you've designed.

[Craig Smerda]

[anotherME]

So hello from the other side of the pool.
Why don't we go on to the next step of development where we share and realy work together on our goals. In these times we are connected, Software everybody can use to design open boats is available and also the ability to DIY is growing. I say we should define 3+ goals like the 'dry 10" OCoee', declare a Software we use, and start Open Source Boat Design and Prototyping.
This is not a new thing and it's working great as you can read the lines I'm typing on my Linux Machine.
I started playing around with the free version of Delftship wich is Windows only but can be used with Wine under Linux or VMware or Parallels on a MacX. If there is something better for free please let us know. http://www.delftship.net/ it's down right now but maybe this works for an download http://www.heise.de/software/download/d ... free/65071
I will share my files, which contain a starting point for an open canoe and some playing around Designs
like this short Troubleshooter:

As important as tinkering around is the Discussion & Knowledge of people who have it. I'm hungry for knowlegde in Design aspects, easy Prototyping, building a mold, do some vacuum bagging, experimenting with different Materials. For one person or even a company it can be an big investment of money & time but for some of us together I think it's not.
Another aspect is the Environment in wich we boat. Why do we have to ship over thousands of miles. We have Machines and Knowlegde all over the Globe. If I have the file for an PE super Creeker I can CNC it and have a Company that rotomoldes Kajaks no 20km away for the European C-comunity and I know that you have these Companys too.

I think the next thing is to participate and build innovative things we really, really want and need on OUR own... and this can also be other things than canoes

Daniel

[Craig Smerda]

I'd like to provide a silent and anonymous donor with thanks to a link for the following thread about the future of paddle designs and the subsequent posts thereafter...

thanks!

http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1052340622/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If there's one thing Americans are truly good at... it's coming up with solutions to problems they didn't even know existed.

[tokebelokee]

Fast, dry PE. Possible?

[griffen_williams]

Are fiberglass molds for PE boats cost effective? How many boats can you pop out before you have to make a new mold? Average Cost?

Wouldnt it be possible to make more boats like Blackfly(Jeremy) does instead of dealing with all of the crazy high cost of mold tooling?

I helped pull a mold off an Phenix Appalachian a couple years ago, I think we put less than a 100 into the mold. I know it cant be that cheap but how much does it really cost?

[Dooleyoc-1]

What the open canoe market needs is a really good 10'2" canoe.

The L'Edge and option and fiend have that market cornered.

Freestyle boats are niche and there are some good designs.

The Ocoee/Viper and Spark are all still good boats.

What the market needs is a really good modern hull deisgn 10'2" boat. Sportier than an Ocoee or Spark for creeking but faster than a L'Edge. If it was just fast enough, just dry enough and just stable enough I think it would sell really well.

[cheajack]

What the market needs is a really good modern hull deisgn 10'2" boat. Sportier than an Ocoee or Spark for creeking but faster than a L'Edge. If it was just fast enough, just dry enough and just stable enough I think it would sell really well.

Where is the Stink Eye?

[fez]

a stretched on 2,70 m Taureau for a tad more speed

*edit* sorry, this is no "next step", so forget it

[oopsiflipped]

What's your c1 going to be called, craig? The dead horse? I can see the ad now. "Craig sez, you just can't beat a dead horse. Kayak that is. Oops, I mean decked canoe."

[ian123]

Troll?

[Craig Smerda]

What's your c1 going to be called, craig? The dead horse? I can see the ad now. "Craig sez, you just can't beat a dead horse. Kayak that is. Oops, I mean decked canoe."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOlaqvv_s1A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[kaz]

Dooley, sorry for the delay, it's coming.