Kayaker dislocated shoulder moving to oc1

[KNeal]

Thank you for all that, Tommy. Now move this thread back to helping wildeboater. From what he originally posted, he:

• - sounds educated
  - has 20 years experience with whitewater paddling
  - liked creeking rather than playboating as a kyacker
  - wants help with whitewater open canoes

[TheKrikkitWars]

krittet.... we're talkin about CANOES here......dude


- As for the prelude - not a boat one should recommend to a beginner- they will have a rough of it(more than they already will), develop bad habits, bad form, and slow progression, IMO

IF beginners want to get into creeking - you get an Option - have a reliable boat(performance, stability, structure) that you can progressive to class 5 with and a boat that will take care of ur azz when you get there.


half the money on the prelude will cost you more later when ur payin hospital bill - from no fault at yours...other than buying a prelude in the first place

Oh Dear...

So the prelude doesn't have a lot of primary stability... for someone who's already got edge control dialed down in a kayak it's not going to be too much effort to get used to exploiting the ridculous amounts of secondary stability the boat has. Certainly I think we can assume that our potential newest convert (should that be victim?) has the sense to stop before he hospitalises himself (though we may not be able to assume we haven't scared the poor fellow off).

I my area it's considered a cardinal sin to put a beginner in a creekboat until they're happy paddling class three or four in some kind of playboat/edgy/slicy thing... the reasoning being that they need a boat that's going to teach them to exploit the fullest potential of both boat and water, before switching to a boat that takes care of them.

I don't see why canoeing would want to embrace the opposite ethic of "let the boat do all the work"... are we really that desperate to get people on the water and paddling hard rapids that we're willing to sacrifice our traditionally superior technical paddling abilites; just because some forgiving boats have been made?

Finally, as I said some time ago with Smurf and the l'edge; the option is not the answer to every persons boating needs, nor come to it is the whole blackfly range... I know that when you have a hammer every problem appears to be a nail; but it looks much better on your opinion, on the boat and on jeremies whole range if you restrain yourself a little.

I don't think its realistic to push someone who's new to canoeing, posdibly unsure if it will suit them, and is looking to try it out towards a new design/brand new boat... At the beginning of a c-paddling career a beat up RX openboat or convertion of a welded hull of dubious provenance and unspecified design is just fine; once you know how to paddle and what you like, then boat choice becomes more of an issue (that said, I firmly believe a truly good boater can adapt to paddle any boat well with time).

[Wiggins]

As a convert from K1 paddling I wouldn't worry too much about edgier designs. Every canoe I have ever been in was a tub compared to any K1 playboat.

For boats like the Zoom, the Prelude, or the Maxim I would definitely try before you buy as people either love or hate those boats. You will get the hang of them rather quickly though as your kayaking background gave you all the tools deal with the edges.

I went with a L'edge for my creek boat, but only because I am a fat boy and it is the fat boy boat. Any number of boats would work well for what you want.

Kyle

[PAC]

As for the prelude - not a boat one should recommend to a beginner- they will have a rough of it(more than they already will), develop bad habits, bad form, and slow progression, IMO

Hummm.... guess that explains my padlding style A LOT! As Prelude paddler!

.....beginners want to get into creeking - you get an Option

Have to agree that the Option is a very fine boat... but suggesting a beginner get one to creek is sort of curel (My $.01) ... unless you want to get a beat up boat on the cheap from a beat up beginner!

As for the shoulder issue... again going slow with the developmental steps to get the correct form will be huge in protecting the shoulder. I think a lesson or 2 from skilled open boater will be very helpful. You also have a major advantage in having water time that will help the transition over to reading and running lines in an open boat! Good luck and keep us posted.

[ViewfromaCanoe]

Kayaking or canoeing, the key to shoulder health is physical therapy! Strong shoulders will be much harder to dislocate than weak ones, (and unless you already work out, they're probably weak). I didn't know how weak my shoulders were (even though I could climb 5.12 and kayak class IV) until I dislocated my shoulder in February and started exercising.


Good luck looking for boats, and get to it!

Some good, simple exercises:
http://www.physioroom.com/experts/askth ... 050225.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[John Coraor]

Kayaking or canoeing, the key to shoulder health is physical therapy! Strong shoulders will be much harder to dislocate than weak ones, (and unless you already work out, they're probably weak). I didn't know how weak my shoulders were (even though I could climb 5.12 and kayak class IV) until I dislocated my shoulder in February and started exercising.


Good luck looking for boats, and get to it!

Some good, simple exercises:
http://www.physioroom.com/experts/askth ... 050225.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the interesting things about shoulder stability is that most standard strength training routines are designed to use heavy weights for strengthening large muscle groups. Strengthening the small muscles that form the rotator cuff, essential for shoulder stability, is often ignored. Following is a link to the daily shoulder routine focused on the rotator cuff recommended by Davey Hearn:

http://www.daveyhearn.com/Coaching/Tech ... outine.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

John

[Craig Smerda]

I think newbs (regardless of their single or double bladed orientation) should start paddling in a fairly stable boat that actually moves in the water before moving to playboats and full on creekers so they can first learn how to actually "paddle" correctly and read rivers first.

Putting kayakers into playboats before they ever l-e-a-r-n to paddle or use a river-runner type boat to me is the dumbest thing ever... but "they" do it every day. They are pretty easy to spot on almost any river though... floating like a turd from one hole to the next, not using the current, waves or eddies... etc.

I could go on and on... but I'll shut up now.

[TheKrikkitWars]

Putting kayakers into playboats before they ever l-e-a-r-n to paddle or use a river-runner type boat to me is the dumbest thing ever... but "they" do it every day. They are pretty easy to spot on almost any river though... floating like a turd from one hole to the next, not using the current, waves or eddies... etc

Thats just poor coaching... if you whack all you beginers in long slicy boats (the redline, Rpm, and Piroette super sport) you have to actually teach them how to use those boats, otherwise the long flat stern decks will just powerflip them time and time again... In the same vein, if you have someone who can roll and put them in a playboat... you need to teach them how to surf, ferry hard in a tiny sluggish boat and possibly dip turn; in order for the boat to actually offer them something useful.

[Craig Smerda]

No... I'm talking about (cough) newer kayaks like a Remix, Z.One, Fun Runner, Zen, Axiom, Mamba, etc.

In the same vein but with canoes... Detonator, Nitro, Octane, Outrage, Probe, etc. are fairly stable, forgiving boats that will move forward easily. I feel it's pretty important for people to learn how to take good forward strokes, to learn not to 'rudder' and also not to rely on bracing all the time.

A L'edge or Option could easily work for a beginner but I don't feel the hull speed is rewarding enough for people starting out fresh. I wouldn't even consider putting a 'newby' into a boat like the Prelude or Maxim. Also... if they have bad habits (poor forward strokes, ruddering and bracing all the time as an example) it's amplified more in the shorter and/or less stable or edgy boats. Then again... some people pick this stuff up, can advance quickly based upon balance, agility, strength, and the amount of time spent on the water. (Tommy actually being a good example of this... he started out in a Detonator, moved to the Maxim and now on to the Option.)

Just an opinion... others may disagree... your personal mileage may vary.