C1 Rolling and PFD advice

[BillP]

I have a reasonably reliable C1 roll, but lately have been having a good bit of trouble with my Remix 79. Yesterday in the pool I hit 2/10 and was really disgusted. But then I took off my PFD (Astral, non-rescue model) and hit 100% and felt very strong. The bulky front of the PFD seems to be the problem, as I'm hitting the knee cup of the boat as I'm coming across and forward - this has the effect that I get about 3/4' of the way up and loose my momentum and fall back over.

So now I'm looking for a new PFD that isn't so bulky in the front. The Sandiline Pro looks and sounds good, but I've never seen one and the photos on the web site aren't detailed enough to tell how "slim" they are in the front. Does anyone have any experience with them? Any other suggestions?

Thanks for any help!

[jatakasawa]

I have a suggestion. Look at your bulky PFD as a challenge to overcome instead of one to avoid. Make your roll bomber with it on/off. Maybe it isn't easy and maybe you should get another, lower profile one but I would continue to practice.

I'm just as guilty as anyone for blaming gear/boats for failing moves when it was my paddling ability that was the real culprit. Please don't take this as a personal criticism. It's awesome you're working hard on your roll and not giving in to being a swimmer.

[BillP]

Hi Shep,
Thanks for your advice, and I don't take it as a personal criticism. In fact, I won't stop trying to roll with the bulky pfd. But I will also find a pfd that works better for this boat (I don't have any problem rolling other boats with the bulky PFD) and my particular rolling style. I think your advice is interesting, and falls into the same category as the nose plug/no nose plug argument. "Try before you buy!" seems to be a standard mantra here (and a very good one, I think) - so why not the same for PFDs, or paddles, or ...
Bill

[BillP]

oops! Sorry - I don't know why I thought that reply came from "Shep"! My apologies to you both!

[VTBoater]

PeakUK and Harmony make low-profile, type III PFDs. Peak also makes a rescue PFD that's very good and not bulky in front.

[isteinc1]

A lot of the slalom boaters use the sandilines I'm not sure which model. But yeah there pretty sleek and slim. I think rolling with out a life jacket is harder because you don't have the extra buoyancy when you start your roll off, so I wouldn't feel guilty about switching life jackets.

[Smurfwarrior]

I prefer the Kokatat Ronin PFD for that very reason. I'd guess that the problem you are having has to do with not getting your body to 90 degrees or more during setup. Seems like you are really keeping your head down (which is great) so I'd suggest reaching slightly beyond 90 deg to give your hips a bit more time to get the boat rolled before your body crosses over the boat. Timing is everything.

[Shep]

That's similar to the advice I had to give my dad when working on his roll. I told him to reach out to 90 degrees, but he was quickly getting his paddle to about 45 degrees forward. When I got him to start at more than 90 degrees, he hit 90 degrees at the "hip snap" moment and was able to get a roll. Something I want to work on more to reduce my paddle dive is to try to use this unavoidable sweep portion of the roll-up by adding a little bit of climbing angle to my blade.

Shep

[Sir Adam]

Without seeing your roll it is tough to say what the difference is, but from having helped a few folks with their rolls I do have an idea for you to try - next time you are rolling (with your life jacket on:) ) concentrate on what your upper hand is doing (the one on the T grip). It should be somewhat anchored to your hip area. A lot of times what happens is you go to roll and do not anchor that hand and when you push down with your lower hand you force your T grip hand out to the side and lose most of the force you have on the paddle.

Good luck and please let us know when you get it figured out - you'll likely help someone else having the same problems down the line!

[jakke]

Have a look at your roll. I used to get into trouble with pfd/drytop combination as well.

My reason for failure was the fact that I was not working from the hips, but speeding up a big sweep. With pfd and drytop I could not build as much speed, thus failing my roll. Yes, pfd was a factor, but not a cause.

Get some video and post it online. It might just be the bulky pfd or some other issue. But I'd guess you'll always get constructive feedback on video

[jharris]

I agree that if you sweep out further to set up you'll have an easier time of not hitting your boat. Compared to a kayak, I feel your life jacket floats you way closer to the surface when you're leaning out to the side of a C1 and I feel comfortable making that my setup position. Leaning 90 degrees out from a kayak with my paddle all twisted up to prepare for a C-C style roll, on the other hand, makes me very nervous about my shoulders if I hit a rock and exposes my body much more to the riverbed.

An important question here would be if you're rolling with a high brace or a low brace. The low brace lends itself well to a 90+ degree sweeped out setup position, because you can sweep your paddle forward a long way. I usually hit my front deck for protection as soon as I flip, but once I start going for my roll setup I'm practically getting in position for a back deck roll.
The high brace on the other hand gets its power sweeping backwards from the bow-- you go straight from the tucked position into the righting stroke just like a sweep roll in a kayak. A lot of former kayakers I've talked to roll this way when they C1 and while it works out for people who have a very strong roll you're not taking full advantage of the forward-sweeping low brace, which is much more powerful than any stroke you can pull off in a kayak.
If you're rolling that way it would explain getting caught up on your boat more, I think. But I'd recommend a low-brace roll for other reasons as well, mainly cause it protects your shoulder more and is more powerful to the point where you get a serious amount of leniency for a less-than-perfect roll
Of course, when I recently learned to roll a kayak and then applied that high-brace roll to my C1 playboat, I do understand why people do it-- it is really fast. But there is a tradeoff of it being less reliable if all other things are equal and maybe getting tangled up in your equipment.

[BillP]

Thanks to everyone for all the great suggestions! I am guilty as charged of not getting out to 90 degrees. I paddle a lot of rocky shallow runs (hate the drought in SE US), and have purposedly started trying to roll with about a 45-60 degree setup to get up quick and not get too extended, but I guess I've overdone it. I get away with it in most boats, but the remix is going to make me honest. I've also had similar problems with drytops/drysuits - but just assumed that was old age and stiffness from the cold water that was making me slow.
Sir Adam - I've never been good at keeping my T-grip hand tucked tight, but hadn't noticed it glancing sideways - that's certainly something to look at, too.
I do use a low-brace. I admire people who can do the high brace roll, but I've never figured it out, and haven't tried much (one shoulder dislocation is enough for a lifetime). I'll try to post a video in the next couple of weeks - I really appreciate all the help, and welcome more.
Finally - Jatakawa - I hope my earlier reply didn't come off as negative - not my intent, but I was frustrated and it may have sounded that way. Thanks for the encouragement to fix the problem rather than avoid it.

[Einar]

Blaming gear...

I just did a side by side comparison of rolling my Viper 11 Royalex and then my Viper 11 Kevlar.
Kevlar hull was a noticeably easier & quicker roller.
(Same rigging systems installed by the same paddler)

No conclusions why, just saying.