ABS Uh Oh

[Jim P]

Well,

Been there done that - My experience with cutting the hull and injecting 3M 3532 urethane epoxy (which also expands - but less than gorrilla glue) has been that the glue holds things together where you put it in, but the expansion at the edges starts to result in additional delamination around the edges of your patch. I have watched the delamination spread further along the boat, even wrapping up past the chines and up the sides of the boat.

Also once you breach the outer layer of abs to he core it becomes a nightmare of maintenance when your outer layer repairs gets cut, or damaged in anyway, letting water back into the inside of the hull. Once this happens you start over, re-gluing the inside, repatching the outside, watching the delam spread out, wating for the next tear and subsequent heavy carry up the hill at the takeout.

It will prolong the life of the boat at the expense of your back. If I was doing it all over again I would not cut the hull open, I'd wait until it got torn open to start into this.

On the soft spots - absolutely re enforce the abs with glass/kevlar, otherwise if it flexes the abs will crack and if you have a hull breach as in the above paragraph - water in your hull again.

[milkman]

On the soft spots - absolutely re enforce the abs with glass/kevlar, otherwise if it flexes the abs will crack and if you have a hull breach as in the above paragraph - water in your hull again.

This isn't clear to me. Are you suggesting a fiberglass or kevlar patch over a soft spot? Won't this just lead to eventual separation of the boat's ABS and the fiberglass/kelvar patch because of the weakness of the bond? Several posts have talked about this.

Or, are you suggesting using, as a earlier post to this chain did, using the ABS paste with Kevlar fabric to strengthen the patch?

[Jim P]

Yes I was saying use ABS with glass. The ABS goo is fully impregnated into the cloth.

I have one area on the chine of my ocoee where it was rebiult this way from the foam core out. Four layers of glass laminated in with ABS. It seems to be holding well and it the stiffest part of the boat.

Fully agreee about normal epoxy it will eventually crack and flake off. Not sure how long the ABS will last, time will tell.

[ezwater]

First a reminder..... It is tedious to sand viniy off. A much faster and more controlled way is to use a sharp wood chisel held at a very low angle. The vinyl will lift away from the ABS without the chisel digging into the ABS. But you MUST hold the chisel at a very low angle, with the chisel handle right against the hull.

Once you have a path started, it goes better if instead of shoveling the vinyl in front of the chisel, you advance the blade at an angle, undercutting the vinyl from the side.

The next surprise is that, if the vinyl is not too hacked up, you may be able to grab the vinyl and peel it back with your fingers. Impressive stuff!!

I just completed a two concentric layer S-glass patch with West epoxy, directly onto the ABS under the pedestal where I sit, a high wear area. While not disparaging those who prefer ABS as a resin, I am betting that patch does not crack or flake off any faster than a similar patch done with "melted" ABS. West epoxy has an outstanding record for sticking to a wide variety of substances.

If you are painting on ABS and want to use a reinforcer, I recommend you NOT use Kevlar. Use S-glass or E-glass. Kevlar has mediocre compression strength, fuzzes when it wears, and can tend to cut through and pull apart resins. Kevlar does absorb water, and while this is exaggerated as a defect, it is not something you want in an external patch. Kevlar is best as an INSIDE material.

[Open Gate]

First a reminder..... It is tedious to sand viniy off

I grind it down, super fast. Very polite with the grinder...and wear a mask.

Painting ??? I love the COW look my boats now have

[ezwater]

..... You should try the sharp chisel method some time. I think you will be pleasantly surprised, and it will save you $$ on fouled sander disks. Also, no dust, no cord.

It is hard to explain chisel use in words, but if you have a sharp, quality chisel it should go smoothly.

And I may not have used the right words about "painting." I was referring only to painting on ABS paste. Otherwise, my own painting schemes tend to deliberate ugliness, making boat theft very unlikely.

[Open Gate]

..... You should try the sharp chisel method some time.

Will do, tks for the tip !

[wjblatner]

Here's a variation on the ABS repair theme. The rigid plastic bracket on the bottom that holds the D-ring that holds the left leg strap on my Esquif Spark is pulling up, taking the top layer of the R-lite with it. I stuck the bracket on with ABS pipe cement and it really bonds. No vinyl layer on the R-lite - straight ABS. There's actually a dent in the bottom of the boat where the bracket pulled up.

I've treated the bottom with a thin layer of ABS paste for general wear and that's worked great. I think I need to patch this spot and embed some kevlar cloth to provide reinforcement. The question I have is what is the best way to remove the bracket? I'm guessing that cement is not going to let go and I may just have to cut around the edge of the bracket and take the inside layer of ABS out. What about heat? I don't think I'm getting delamination as a bit of the foam seems to be coming with it.

Any thoughts? Any good suppliers for kevlar cloth?

One last thought. The leg strap connections on the bottom of the hull have been a problem in other boats I've owned as well. I have a light weight plastic Perception saddle/bulkhead that I'm thinking of installing. That would put the stress of the leg support on a couple thwarts and off the bottom of the ABS hull, which gets a lot of flexing going over rocks and what-have-you anyway. More boats seem to be coming with bulkheads these days - seems like a good solution to me.

Bill

[Heidi]

Hey Bill, my 2 cents based solely on experience with a royalex hull...Before considering doing any kind of carving-out, I would first try a hair dyer, keep moving it over and around the bracket, might take a few minutes to get an edge to loosen and then patiently keep at it, avoid the sharp tools, just leather gloves and gentle hand prying while applying the heat. I've removed those hard plastic brackets adhered with Weldwood from the Outrage but they take longer than a vinyl patch.

Couple of thoughts beyond that...ditch those hard plastic (antique) brackets. The Esquif outfitting that I got through Kaz is simply a vinyl patch with nylon webbing sewn on in various ways, no metal rings. I can't speak to your other saddle idea other than it has been recommended by a boat builder or two to do something about the saddle being a high friction point. A floating saddle held in by a thwart and straps. Skip has one setup like that.

Ever since my foot got hung up momentarily (yet long enough to cause injury to my hip) on the thigh strap while trying to exit, I've been rethinking outfitting. I'm trying different ideas with minicell, not a full bulkhead just knee cups on the chine and full hip contact, trying for minimalism with the minicell. Yesterday was my first in the Spark, testing out placement etc., with things duct taped in. Gluing this week and a full test next weekend, then I'll let you know how it's holding me in on the rolls. Maybe you join me on Fife. Yeah, I still need to do something to stiffen up all the play in the hull.

BTW, I have a brand new Esquif outfitting package for sale for what I paid for it $100 plus $5 for shipping.

Heidi

[wjblatner]

Heidi,

Unfortunately, there was little holding the bracket in. The ABS inside layer was cracked right around and the foam ripping. I took it out and did ABS paste reinforced with fiberglass inside and out. It's still a little soft in that spot. I'm going to add some more fiber glass inside to tie it to larger area and then install a vinyl patch/d-ring, then another large piece of fiverglass in ABS over the top.

I decided not to cut out the nice foam saddle yet. My hope is that the extra glass reinforcement with be enough to hold the attachment and distribute the load to a larger area of the hull.

Let's do Fife! I've got an agenda for the gap after our weekend with Andrew.

see ya,

Bill