No wonder canoes are not profitable

[Kev]

I get new boats when im looking for a change. I also find getting into different boats, can get you looking at the river in different ways, which can be fun. Who doesn't like new toys?

I am a huge Esquif fan, my next OC will be a boat from them. Hopefully after a meeting at the OR show we can take/share the line from another shop, and carry there boats in our store. (territory rights) I could have sold a few already this year.

[jim gross]

Well i don,t know about yall, but i make alot of my own C-1,s. Designed on paper then transffered to glass, kevlar and epoxy. I have designed and built 1 failure, chopped the snot outa 2 race boats, 1 wood stripper cruiser, 1 squirty boat, 1 western style self support class 4 boat, 2 short play boats that could be concerted to K-1 in a couple minutes for switchies. and have a C-1 squirt wood stripper starting the hull stripping this past weekend. I started in an Encore but found it didn,t track well in pushy class 4 and 5. My Ocoee could track but again in big water class 5 (4000 cfs upper gauley) i found it a liability. Always hated the way abs boats blew out quick. So it is C-1,s for me now on. Guess i,m just a big skirt wearin pansie, HUH???. JIM

[Lou]

Here are some notes I just shared with Trey who is keen to share his enthusiam:

"I know what you mean about being at a stage where your skills really start coming together. You are farther along the curve than I am, but I am far enough to understand it. A water animal is born or resurrected and the paddle becomes the vestigal bud of a fin. This seems to get lost in translation, but you can see it in the eyes of other paddlers. The paddling life becomes an act of nurturing the water animal and being with other water animals. There is the genesis of a song. So, help fill in the lines, keep the lump in the throat and water in the eye. "

All boats are dead boats. It is the paddler and the paddle that bring them to life and evolve.

Thanks to all the boat designers, shapers and builders out there who have made such fun and discovery possible.

Thanks for letting me take this wave,
Capitan cero, DBC

[Mr.DeadLegs]

Steve sorry no water and had to tile the kitchen. woooo weee what a fun weekend.

And yea I do believe that a canoe ought to have wood on it somewhere and a big hole it the top. Taking water and dealing with the water you have taken is part of the game, and I don't like the idea of the rim on the Taureau. Keep it open. If you need it get a pump, bailer, or a nice old sponge.

Trey

[KNeal]

As far as Race Boats I would like to try one. Altough racing seems like it would get boring after a while. I would also like to try C1 although I have yet to find one I can fit in. The flatwater raceboats that you paddle on one knee look interesting as well.

Nope, can't say that slalom race boats get boring. I use mine more than my other boats, including the Viper c-1. Wanna try a flatwater racing canoe? High kneel in one of those things and you'll quickly discover your skills are sitting on the bottom of the learning curve. Try a flatwater tandem racing canoe and your skills start below the curve. Try a Hawaiian-style oc-1 and you're discovering a whole new type of fun.

I just know that I have a hard time selling what I have (tried to sell the Viper and renigned) and strategize for a long time before I buy my next boat (maybe a Maven? ).

KNeal

[RodeoClown]

My take on this: canoes are profitable for the simple reason of supply vs. demand. There just aren't enough canoers (demand) to make it worth while for manufacturers to supply a lot of new designs. So we patch, repair, rebuild until the boats just don't float anymore. As a whole, canoers seem to be a nostalgic bunch, and somewhat set in their ways, probably partly because they've been paddling the same boats for a long, long time. Once they wear out their old boat, they often go looking for the same model- or something similar. This all drives demand down, and design progression stagnates. With slow design progression, the potential for what can be done in canoes also progresses at a snails pace, while the alternative- decked boats- have been evolving very quickly- along with what you can do in them. Like Kev said, a lot of the decked boat crowd get new boats when they're looking for a change. Since there's more potential for "change" in that arena, that's where people gravitate- which means even less demand for new open boats. No demand means no new boats, no new boats means no new boaters, which means no demand. So we patch, repair, etc...

here's a graphic illustration:

I started paddling in 1996. Hot kayaks at the time were the Kinetic, Whip-it, RPM, and Acrobat 270:


Fast forward 11 years to the Project, Agent, 4-Twenty, etc:


Looking at canoes, when I started paddling, people were in boats like Probes, Outrages, and Descenders:
(note that the picture of the outrage is from the current Mad River website)

Compare that to what's generating buzz now- Zephyr, Paradigm, heck I can't think of what's even hot now, and looking back over this board, there's a lot more discussion about repairing open boats than new open boats...


Obviously, there has been some progression, boats like the Zoom and Solito are a start:


Then enter boats like the Taureau, Salsa, or my baby, the Blackfly:


There have been others along the way as well, Skeeter, Spanishfly, Quake, etc. and these boats have more quickly followed the progression of decked boats, but are still lagging behind. The problem is any time one of these boats comes along, there's always a traditional canoer who's quick to poo-poo these boats and say they're not real canoes.

One of the other major areas that kayaks have progressed in is that they're now a lot easier to paddle than they were 10 years ago. Easier to maneuver, roll, more stable, etc. Canoes don't have to be hard to paddle either- but the "challenge" seems to be part of the appeal for the traditional crowd.

I've got to give Esquif a lot of props for going down both roads- traditional and progressive. However, until canoers are willing to allow canoes to progress, I don't think we'll see canoes being profitable.

Sorry for the massive photo dump, but I think it makes my point. Flame on.

Jeremy

[KNeal]

Spanish Fly, Black Fly, Super Fly...

...does anyone have an open fly?



KNeal

[Kev]

I've got to give Esquif a lot of props for going down both roads- traditional and progressive. However, until canoers are willing to allow canoes to progress, I don't think we'll see canoes being profitable.

Jeremy

Amen, Jeremy.

Great little photo history too.

-----

Who ever said you can't teach an old dog new tricks? They just need to be willing to try new things.

As much as the those old ways may still work, why not try something new? You never know, it might shine a whole new light on how you have fun on the river.

[Mikey B]

Technically, they're all Open Fly's right

[Open Gate]

Spanish Fly, Black Fly, Super Fly...

...does anyone have an open fly?



KNeal

Nope, these dry suites with zippers are too expensive

Good one

Rodeo clown, don't appologize, it's nice to see pics of these boats side by side.
I've been paddling plastic boats for years now and yes I've heard all the smart A$$ comments regarding my ''bath tub, Tee kettle, snow plow...boat'' from other open boaters.
Actually, the only paddlers that find the CU FLY interesting are double bladders on the Ottawa...

I'll repeat, we are a minority (Rodeo open boating, class V open boaters) and due to demand, if we want to see our sport progressing, we have the obligation to keep innovating. So to your tools and start cutting, welding and keep upping the Ante !

Most of all, keep smiling

Every one keep in mind, up to a few years ago, cutting open boats down was the only way to innovate for Rodeo.

[RodeoClown]

To paraphrase Jim Snyder, you can either let the tools available to you to shape your intentions and want you do, or let your intentions and what you want to do to shape your tools.

Jeremy

[adamin]

Nice photo history indeed, Jeremy! I also like the image of you? in the ad in Paddler:)

Jim Snyder does have some very wise words for us, on a number of levels, that cut to the essence of paddling in general.

[Lou]

I see no either ors but all kinds of possibilities running the full spectrum. Boaters all along this spectrum are doing some very cool stuff. Seeing them perform is what really sparks the imagination for what is possible. The same evolution has happened in other water sports like surfing where similar debates between long boarders and short boarders have occurred. Skill levels have risen accordingly in both ranks along with changes in shapes and lighter materials.

[Craig Smerda]

If not for "touring" canoe sales... most (if not all) canoe companies wouldn't be making any ww canoes. Funny... I haven't seen a lot of NEW Dagger Ocoee's recently... have you?

If not for rec-kayaks or touring kayak sales... most if not all kayak companies wouldn't be making whitewater kayaks. JK making REC boats pretty much shows you that stark reality.

Pretty simple really... it's called economics.

Either you like and purchase new designs or you don't, but for anyone out there that thinks companies like Esquif, MadRiver, Bell, Mohawk or Evergreen... heck... even Pyranha, Dagger, Blue Hole, Whitesell, etc. (all "out" of the canoe business... hmmm?) are making a bunch of money off of you every time you purchase a new boat... yer plumb crazy. The numbers just aren't there. I know. Everytime you see someone with a shiny new Royalex flatwater canoe... you should thank them... cause those are the boats that are funding your fun.

my 2 cents... for what that's worth.

[oc1paddlr]

IF I could have bought my 2nd ocoee from dagger I would have done it 3 years ago. My 07 Bell back-up falls way short in Q-C. AND YOU CALL THOSE DECK PLATES? I'm calling around to see if I can finish my boat with deck plates btw, the Bell factory screws will pop the airbags pronto...well,duh...wish that group from Fla had jumped on this mold