Big Water C1 pointers needed
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oopsiflipped
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Whoa! I don't know you Phil nor have I been lucky enough to meet Jim. I do know Jim's reputation and rumor has it that he has more 1st d's than most people have days on the water.philcanoe wrote:
give it break (please).... I ran the grand canyon early in the second year of open canoeing, and even back then in the early 1980's it was only a advanced intermediate level run (at best)...
evidently we're talking so far over your head, you can't even recognize what everyone else (so far) is doing
He is as old school as old school gets short of paddling a Blue Hole and the man deserves respect. I was looking for c1 info. He is talking about paddling a big open boat. I'm told that cross side strokes are way more effective in a c1 than an open boat.
I'm sure you know more than everyone else on this board put together, Phil. You must be the coolest open boater ever! Oh, wait. That's Nolan. You want to diss him while your at it?
Chill
Chill, guys,
the advice you give someone on a river trip, a long one where a few bad days could lead to a few bad weeks, is different than the "ideal", or theoretical, advice one might give.
Jim is a very experienced boater. He sized up the situation and gave advice that works. Might not conform to modern technique, but it worked. Made that person's Grand Canyon trip a lot more fun, I bet.
Bill
the advice you give someone on a river trip, a long one where a few bad days could lead to a few bad weeks, is different than the "ideal", or theoretical, advice one might give.
Jim is a very experienced boater. He sized up the situation and gave advice that works. Might not conform to modern technique, but it worked. Made that person's Grand Canyon trip a lot more fun, I bet.
Bill
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sbroam
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Dang, those swims and bruises last night were for nothing?!kaz wrote:I was just being humorous.
Jim Michaud is one of the best open boaters I know of.
JK
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How to paddle big water
There was a guy back in the 70's who paddled with Coastal Canoeists in Virginia. I think his name was Teddy Wilcox. He developed a unique way of running big rapids. He'd position his big Grumman at the top of rapid, place his paddle in the floor, grab the gunwales, and put his head down. He rarely swam. He did this on rivers that were considered big water then. Chattooga, New, etc.
Bill
Bill
For big water, an effective cross is only going to be useful if it is effective. This is something I have recent experience. During the last couple of years, I have completely rebuilt my cross so it is actually more effective and not something where I get, "trapped," on the cross. As with most technical developments, I have to credit Cathy Hearn with targeting and addressing this through highly creative and effective strategies.
Having come from open boat to decked, I still jump in an OC every now and again. Pertaining to the cross, many of the concepts learned in decked do transfer. However, effective scenarios decrease since it takes so much longer to get across the boat when having to go up and over an OC as opposed to a decked boat.
In a C1, there really are two distinct variations on the cross. One is when you need the bow to be engaged, when forward speed or conservation of momentum is the priority. The other is when it is more important to keep the hull free, when it is more of a correction stroke.
With both, the key to not getting trapped on the cross feeling like a human pretzel is to keep your chest open. The easiest way to imagine this is when practicing this on the flat, imagine a string attached to the bottom of your ribcage in the center. Imagine Hulk Hogan is tugging on this string, pulling you forward as you wind up, place the paddle and unwind. In every phase of the cross, imagine you are being tugged in this way.
The propulsion of the cross, like an onside forward stroke, comes from the pelvis. Thus, to be able to extract power from the cross, part of the wind up should be rotating your pelvis forward. When exerting power on the cross, you are not thinking about pulling on the paddle. Rather, you are thrusting your pelvis forward.
Curling up on the cross, this is what creates a feeling of being trapped. When your chest closes up, your range of motion dramatically decreases. The cross is a stroke requiring complex motion in a multitude of ways. Focusing on pulling on the paddle contributes to this curling up. Therefore, to extract maximum effectiveness from the cross, keep the chest opened up and thrust from the hips.
As a final note, on a much broader technical note, do not forget to look where you want to go when executing the cross. Especially since this is a propulsion stroke, looking long is better than looking short.
If anybody still has questions, please do not hesitate to ask.
Having come from open boat to decked, I still jump in an OC every now and again. Pertaining to the cross, many of the concepts learned in decked do transfer. However, effective scenarios decrease since it takes so much longer to get across the boat when having to go up and over an OC as opposed to a decked boat.
In a C1, there really are two distinct variations on the cross. One is when you need the bow to be engaged, when forward speed or conservation of momentum is the priority. The other is when it is more important to keep the hull free, when it is more of a correction stroke.
With both, the key to not getting trapped on the cross feeling like a human pretzel is to keep your chest open. The easiest way to imagine this is when practicing this on the flat, imagine a string attached to the bottom of your ribcage in the center. Imagine Hulk Hogan is tugging on this string, pulling you forward as you wind up, place the paddle and unwind. In every phase of the cross, imagine you are being tugged in this way.
The propulsion of the cross, like an onside forward stroke, comes from the pelvis. Thus, to be able to extract power from the cross, part of the wind up should be rotating your pelvis forward. When exerting power on the cross, you are not thinking about pulling on the paddle. Rather, you are thrusting your pelvis forward.
Curling up on the cross, this is what creates a feeling of being trapped. When your chest closes up, your range of motion dramatically decreases. The cross is a stroke requiring complex motion in a multitude of ways. Focusing on pulling on the paddle contributes to this curling up. Therefore, to extract maximum effectiveness from the cross, keep the chest opened up and thrust from the hips.
As a final note, on a much broader technical note, do not forget to look where you want to go when executing the cross. Especially since this is a propulsion stroke, looking long is better than looking short.
If anybody still has questions, please do not hesitate to ask.
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Jim Michaud
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I would like to offer my insincere apology to philcanoe for getting him so upset that he felt that he had to launch a personal attack on me. I've never flamed anyone yet and I never will. I expect no less from anyone else.
As far as my advice to our Grand Canyon OC-1 chick goes she was well versed in advanced paddling techniques such as cross strokes, paddling up front, etc. She's only been paddling for two or three years and this was her first time in big water so her skill level wasn't quite on the level of Bill or Phil. She had just swum Hance Rapid and now faced a very long, powerful rapid that required maneuvering. A swim here could have been disastrous. What she didn't need was more tutoring on advanced paddling techniques. What she DID need was some hints on good defensive paddling and this is exactly what we gave her. For the rest of the trip she was all smiles (and upright).
On oopsiflipped's initial post he mentioned that he "finally made some rolls". From this I assumed that he might be a new paddler and he might just be interested in staying upright until he learned more advanced techniques.
Oopsiflipped mentioned "He is as old school as old school gets short of paddling a Blue Hole". Actually I started paddling before the Blue Hole era in a 15-foot Grumman canoe complete with a lake keel. We used no float bags, thigh straps or helmets. Throw bags weren't invented yet so everyone carried a coil of rope and someone on the trip almost always carried a come-along so that we could winch the boats off of the rocks. I'm so old-school that I'm now considered pre-school.
To Mike B's question: No big water rodeo moves on this Grand Canyon trip. I spent most of the time leading our OC-1 chick down the easy lines.
jim
As far as my advice to our Grand Canyon OC-1 chick goes she was well versed in advanced paddling techniques such as cross strokes, paddling up front, etc. She's only been paddling for two or three years and this was her first time in big water so her skill level wasn't quite on the level of Bill or Phil. She had just swum Hance Rapid and now faced a very long, powerful rapid that required maneuvering. A swim here could have been disastrous. What she didn't need was more tutoring on advanced paddling techniques. What she DID need was some hints on good defensive paddling and this is exactly what we gave her. For the rest of the trip she was all smiles (and upright).
On oopsiflipped's initial post he mentioned that he "finally made some rolls". From this I assumed that he might be a new paddler and he might just be interested in staying upright until he learned more advanced techniques.
Oopsiflipped mentioned "He is as old school as old school gets short of paddling a Blue Hole". Actually I started paddling before the Blue Hole era in a 15-foot Grumman canoe complete with a lake keel. We used no float bags, thigh straps or helmets. Throw bags weren't invented yet so everyone carried a coil of rope and someone on the trip almost always carried a come-along so that we could winch the boats off of the rocks. I'm so old-school that I'm now considered pre-school.
To Mike B's question: No big water rodeo moves on this Grand Canyon trip. I spent most of the time leading our OC-1 chick down the easy lines.
jim
My apology for hitting so hard; however I still feel the "I know because 25 trips" - was a bit over the top... my attack was not being personally vindictive (I do not know you)... I was rebutting the notion of going for a low brace first... furthermore that offside strokes are so critical, that they should be considered a basic stroke and not advanced... if someone doesn't have one, shame on them
I'll also admit to being frustrated, that so many oc1'ers consider the Grand Canyon so out there! My usual paddling partner was on Jim Schelanders open boat 1st-D in '79... and also have known so many others who have been down, that I assume almost every advanced intermediate should go
I'll also admit to being frustrated, that so many oc1'ers consider the Grand Canyon so out there! My usual paddling partner was on Jim Schelanders open boat 1st-D in '79... and also have known so many others who have been down, that I assume almost every advanced intermediate should go
Back to Gabe's original post, Idaho has much bigger and powerful water than the Grand, especially now.
This videos been making the rounds, but it proves the point:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rSXSxC8xjx4
One thing really great about being in an OC-1 in big water is you have much better visibility than decked boats and more momentum to carry thru squirrellys.
This videos been making the rounds, but it proves the point:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rSXSxC8xjx4
One thing really great about being in an OC-1 in big water is you have much better visibility than decked boats and more momentum to carry thru squirrellys.
Joel,
Thanks for your input. Your descriptions provided clear techniques and will hopefully help correct my weak and pitiful cross strokes.
I wonder if the curling tendency also has something to do with defensive postures (lacking strong confidence on my "other" side), as opposed to feeling strong and using an offensive approach.
There's always something more for me to work on....
Colleen
Thanks for your input. Your descriptions provided clear techniques and will hopefully help correct my weak and pitiful cross strokes.
I wonder if the curling tendency also has something to do with defensive postures (lacking strong confidence on my "other" side), as opposed to feeling strong and using an offensive approach. There's always something more for me to work on....
Colleen
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sbroam
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I pulled my "cross forward" muscle recently and I'm trying to figure out if it was because of bad form No, really, I've got muscle pain around the bottom of the left side of my rib cage (the "cross side") about where Hulk Hogams string would be... I was paddling an open boat (heavier than I'm used to) and really hammering out cross forwards...
No, really, I've got muscle pain around the bottom of the left side of my rib cage (the "cross side") about where Hulk Hogams string would be... I was paddling an open boat (heavier than I'm used to) and really hammering out cross forwards...C-Boats Moderator
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