2009 ACA Whitewater Open Canoe Downriver Nationals

kaz · Post by **kaz** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:01 pm

Way back when, probably mid to late eighties, I was at the national meeting that was held at NOC right after the slalom and downriver nationals were done racing, for the day. That's also when there was only 1 committee for both disciplines. It was agreed upon that "rec" boats would be allowed to race at nationals with the sole intent that once you tried racing in your rec boat, and if you liked it, you would step up and purchase a "race" boat. Things didn't quite turn out that way.
While I'm guilty of racing rec boats at slalom and downriver nationals, I think it's almost ridiculous "racing" something so slow and heavy. Heck I can't even pick some of them up without blowing out a disc. I think both committees need to get back to the true, pure roots of racing. The price of a "race" boat is not that much more than a quality "rec" boats. And why wouldn't you want to spend more for something that is better, for racing in this case. And yes, you CAN also cruise the same boat that you race in.
Jkaz[/b]

Dooleyoc-1 · Post by **Dooleyoc-1** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:28 pm

I agree with Kaz. I could probably call out about 10 people on the slalom side that that are very into the sport and attend the nationals every year but don't have a race boat. I don't understand.

It is a sweet feeling to paddle a light fast boat. That's one thing I like about racing. It's different than paddling one of my short slow creek boats (prelude spanish fly) so after I've been creeking all winter and spring in the short boats it's fun to jump in the race boats and have some real hull speed. It opens up whole different moves on rivers like the ocoee that I don't even think about trying in my short boats.

I encourage others to step up and buy a race boat. They're fun and they will help your normal paddling too. (and if paddling is your hobby it's worth the investment)

the great gonzo · Post by **the great gonzo** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:16 pm

I agree about the race boats. I bought Isaac's old Loco last winter, and I am having a blast in it. I am not much of a racer, I have onlyentered one race at the Gull this year and got soundly beaten by 13 year olds...

... but I love it for riverrunning. Had it down the upper Petawawa (class 3-4 run in Ontario with some steep and technical drops) as well as down the Ottawa and the Upper Gauley. The speed is just amazing, and, as Dooley mentioned, you are doing moves you would not even think about in a short plastic boat.

Eliminating the race boat class would be the same as banning the race bikes in the Moto GP world champinship, after all, there are more people riding on cruisers that might then be tempted to participate, right...

...??

TGG!

kaz · Post by **kaz** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:08 pm

While I have a vested interest in keeping "race" boats alive, because building them is my job, it would be foolish to think that's why I'm promoting them. That would be like saying Old Town or Esquif has a vested interest in keeping "rec" boats alive because they build them. Regardless of the boat, somebody had to build it. Did that make any sense?
JKaz

Post by **PAC** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:01 pm

Makes sense to me Kaz. One of these days I will get a cool oc racer so I understand.

I think pulling the class, any class is a mistake. Make it inclusive and fun.

Okay you might get one want-to-be racer (aka: PAC) who wants to be the national champ in class "x" because last time no one had a boat in that class! But that is more an exception and water does find its own level (someone else will show up race day for that class).

So I like either the race what you brung (no one ever told me life is fair) or the fastest time of the day wins (in which case a rec boat could be the champ - based on being good and lucky).

I'd love to attend this year's race - but its planned to over lap some family time. Best of luck to those racing in what ever class!

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:56 pm

Whoa, I'm not for limiting which boats can race - don't get me wrong - everyone race, the more the merrier!

Heaven Forbid that, My question was more...

If you think that, by calling so many different classes National Championship's, then there is no reason for people to move up into those RAC or F14 classes? That if the REC and F16 classes were no longer designated as National Championship status, then those reluctant racers might move up. And as a result, the actual level of overall competition would increase. As it is now, racers are limited to a certain number of events (per day) and so you don't really get to complete against everyone (suspect that's part of the reason anyway). In slalom at least, downriver is a little different, as there are overall winners. Not so in slalom, over there everyone can and does bring one home .

(if not there's seconds and thirds a plenty).

I have nothing to gain, it's actually not to my advantage really for this to happen. I do make my own, but don't sell boats. And I'm doing quite fine without all the additional competition, it could very likely be contrary to my tally. However I would rather see the RAC and F14 portions grow, than head in it's current direction.

Clayton · Post by **Clayton** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:16 am

Hello all,
I am the race director for the '09 ACA WWOC Nationals on the Dead river.

The Dead is -in my opinion - an outstanding venue for a downriver race in a composite boat ...

There will be OC1 and OC2 race boats on the course this summer.

Maine is one of the few areas with paddlers who own and want to enter composite boats in other than FW races.

I believe that we have an opportunity to kindle a resurgence of interest in the race classes. It really does require paddlers to bring these types of boats to the race and enter them . I urge you and your fellow composite boat enthusiasts to attend.

Except for the race in NC this past summer (miss one race and see what the mice are up to!) I have paddled OC1 and OC2 Race class WWOC downriver for the last 12 years. I have seen diminishing participation each year.

Perhaps what this class needed the most was the threat of extermination.

- I am on the WWOC committee and I can assure you all that the meeting this summer will go a little differently with regard to the race classes.
Furthermore there will be no rule changes just prior to or during the race.... tsk, tsk.

My regards to all and I hope you will all try to make it to ME - I promise you a good time on warm whitewater!

Clayton Cole

canoogaa · Post by **canoogaa** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:55 pm

It's great to see interest in the 14% downriver racing class and I hope there is a good turnout at the Dead for '09.

As the current Chairman of the ACA WWOCD I want to assure you all that I very much want to continue the 14% OC1 and OC2 racing classes. I was not able to attend the '08 Nationals in Hot Springs and am deeply concerned about what happened. I agree with Clayton that the '09 meeting will go differently with more WWOCD committee members representing the interests of ALL of the racing classes and ESPECIALLY no rule changes made on the fly.

I look forward to seeing some familiar and new faces showing up racing 14%! We look forward to accomodating you!

Paul Cole

zwh10 · Post by **zwh10** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:16 pm

The reason that there is talk of eliminating the 14% racing class is simply because it is no longer competitive. Clayton has the best advice so far: show up and race! If there is a huge turnout for the racing class, the 14% class will not have any reason to be eliminated. The issue that arose at the 2008 Nationals came up because the times in the 16% class were faster than the times in the racing class, and some people were (not seriously) considering "moving up" a class to the racing class, where they would be guaranteed a first place. If there is a large, competitive turnout for the upcoming nationals in the 14% class, this problem will be solved. And as for the talk of plastic boats being not suitable for a "real Nationals level" race, maybe everybody should take a look at paddlers like Ed Sharp, William and Lynne McDuffie, Keith and Karla Havens, Jim Farrington, etc. I hardly believe you could claim that these racers are anything less than National Champions.

Post by **sbroam** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:12 am

2008 on the French Broad may not have been the best place to compare glass and plastic. Had I been racing and in a glass boat, the oh-so-level might have inspired me to go a little slower... 400CFS on the FB is kinda ugly in places...

Stingray · Post by **Stingray** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:02 am

I really want to go this year.
I paddled rec boat for the down river nats becuase I'm usually borrowing a boat. Anyone what to lend me a race boat.
I have a wood stripper, I'v raced on the Arkansas national, I don't think I want to use it on the dead, put I might, depend on the night before.

The dead is alot of fun. I may have a boat to burn if thats what take to get you there. Its an old plug, don't think I need it anymore, I just pulled (what looks like) a pretty good looking mold off of it.

A new open boat in town.

I just have to firgure out how to spell the name, that was pretty good large steaming pile of dog doo last night. I'll diffenantly have something to burn at the race, either a plug or the first boat.

See you at the boom fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stingray · Post by **Stingray** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:08 am

large steaming pile of dog doo

thats pretty good, more words then I would normaly use to discribe what I said

I quess that really appaulling kind of lanage I shouldn't use it.
I'm sorry

eddyhops · Post by **eddyhops** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:39 pm

Stingray wrote:... I would normaly use to discribe what I said

I quess that really appaulling kind of lanage I shouldn't use it.

You takin' vocab & grammar lessons from Louie?

Stingray · Post by **Stingray** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:18 am

Nope wy do assk.

I did however find out that burning resin is talksick ha ha ha.
I munch rather burn a rubber boat, hope that not talksick.

Must be the resin.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:23 pm

zwh10 wrote:The reason that there is talk of eliminating the 14% racing class is simply because it is no longer competitive. Clayton has the best advice so far: show up an
race! If there is a huge turnout for the racing class, the 14% class will not have any reason to be eliminated. The issue that arose at the 2008 Nationals came up because the times in the 16% class were faster than the times in the racing class, and some people were (not seriously) considering "moving up" a class to the racing class, where they would be guaranteed a first place. If there is a large, competitive turnout for the upcoming nationals in the 14% class, this problem will be solved. And as for the talk of plastic boats being not suitable for a "real Nationals level" race, maybe everybody should take a look at paddlers like Ed Sharp, William and Lynne McDuffie, Keith and Karla Havens, Jim Farrington, etc. I hardly believe you could claim that these racers are anything less than National Champions.

No one has questioned anyone's paddling ability, bit touchy aren't we (know I am)? This was a discussion about classes of boats, care to offer something???

A 16-17 foot boat designed for nothing else besides going downstream in a straight line, is going to be faster than a 15 foot composite slalom boat built for maneuverability (that's nothing new). That was the composite boat you're comparing times against, that's hardly any contest. As someone of your ability surely knows, so what was your point? The real issue seemed to be the extremely low level at which the river was running, as only the F16 guys showed up.

It's merely my contention (opinion) that by allowing A National Championship(s) to be given out at all to the F16 class, that it's detrimental for the sport as a whole. Truly the hoped for effect of opening up the 'Sport of Racing' for greater competition, has NOT worked out as expected. It should be commended, that action has been implemented to increase attendance. However as can be seen, an opposite reaction took place. The intent was for those in F16 to one day buy a race boat and get with the program. It's not like they are really expensive, from what I see a Swamp Hen and Spanish Fly aren't that far apart. But all you hear is cost, cost, cost. Ever take a look at what most other sports cost, even in glass boats this sport is still pretty cheap. And once going there will be used boats for all. Of course the argument is those boats are too expensive, well how many do you plan on buying. And then you hear, 'Those boats are too fragile', well learn how not to hit rocks. You can see from the condition of some of those ABS boats, that would be a new concept. There are guys in the plastic class (both Slalom and Downriver) that have been at it for years. The intent was to allow fresh meat in, some new blood. But all that's been created is an alternate race within the real race. Instead of creating a condition in which a new comer would feel welcome and could compete, they are now having to compete against experts.

As for doing away with classes of boats, the aim is in the wrong direction. I know that you'd have a composite boat in short order then. It's my opinion that all the committees both Slalom and Downriver should allow these recreational craft, but not award them anything called a 'National Championship'; furthermore a limit should be set so that once someone has won, then they move up. And yes you could use the same boat, because in essence we would be rating the paddler not the boat. After all isn't it your contention that these ABS canoes are simply great, and these guys are top notch. I TRULY believe they are, both the Slalom and Downriver racers.

So why are these guys afraid to leave the recreational boats, to the recreational paddlers? I believe it's a fact that within both disciplines, there's a subculture of those that have a vested interest in avoiding increased competition, and will do anything to keep that competition diluted for their personal gain. I make this statement knowing that 's going to raise a few hairs, and cost me personally, and no not everyone. However as someone who has current National Championships (slalom and downriver) and should not at age 52, I feel uniquely qualified to make that statement. As increased competition would only hurt my chances. These guys need to get their stuff together, get race boats, and be part of the big picture - instead of being just another part of the me-me (me) generation. I would welcome a top five finish in an race of increased competition, rather than winning one out of so many. ALTHOUGH IN ALL FAIRNESS DOWNRIVER committee/racers are nowhere as bad about giving away medals as the slalom guys are, in downriver you still have to earn them.

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2009 ACA Whitewater Open Canoe Downriver Nationals

ACA Downriver Nationals