bulkhead and rolling

[keez]

I'm having trouble seeing the difference in exiting the boat between the lap belt and thigh straps.
Considering the confines of the bulkhead cockpit; I would think that getting out of 2 straps over your thighs would be that much more difficult than one across your lap. Hence the request for advise from more learnered paddlers.
I have heard that lap belts=suicide straps.

[marclamenace]

In most setups, if you can slide your feets off the pegs then your knees can get a little loose from the bulkhead and the thight straps gets loose too. All without moving your butt. With the lapstrap you can't get out without pulling them off unless you move yourself back on the saddle, which the backbench prevents from happening.

I have a lapbelt in one of my C1. The way it is setted if I don't put it too thight I can still exit by pulling REALLY hard.

I still feel thight straps are more useful when leaning the boat on sides gives more control, but that might be just me... Personal preferences

[kslund]

Keez,

I think getting out of our boat depends a lot on how you setup the thigh straps or lapbelt.

For instance, if you make the rear thigh strap attachment point low and behind the ankle - it makes it much harder to slide out of thigh straps.

I don't have any experience with lap belts but I imagine they hold you down pretty tight and are almost impossible to slide out of if the buckle fails. With most thighstraps you can usually slide out of them - but again the attachment points make a big difference.

But the reason I decided to make thigh straps system instead of lapbelt is that it has two buckles and is self-equalizing. If either buckle releases (or if I am able to slide one leg out without it releasing) the other side will loosen up as well, since the strap is just floating through the PVC. Also, having two buckles setup this way eliminates "single point of failure" issues with the buckle - although you could probably design a double release lap belt.

I think for most river-running I probably won't use the straps at all - which is why I made them detachable - the bulkhead give enough control. For situations where I think I will be rolling i.e. the local playhole, straps come on...

[the great gonzo]

Not that I am promoting the use of lap belts here , but personally I feel that my lap-belt setup that uses an aircraft belt style buckle (which are of a fail-safe design) and no footpegs, is for me personally safer than using a bulkhead and footpegs alone.
If I try to make a bulkhead alone tight enough fopr me that I do not hget sucked out of the boat when getting worked in a big hole, then it takes me quite a while to work myself out of the boat. Many bulkhead only outfitted boats feel like death traps to me, as the bulkead comes up so high on my thighs.
The bulkhead in by prelude locates essentially only my knees, with the lap bel pulling me firmly into the saddle and keeping me from getting sucked out, no matter how big the hole ( and trust me, I have tested this, usually involuntarily, in several thrashy holes I never intended to go in in the first place... ...), but the second I open the lap belt release, I am out.


TGG!

[Jollyman]

I have the stock Mohawk outfitting in my Probe and it is essentially an adjustable strap that acts like a bulkhead just above my knees and foot pegs and it works just fine. I have added ankle blocks to cut down on the creaks and groans after a hard day of boating. I have no problem staying in my boat under water. The key is to have a bulkhead that fits tightly around your thighs. The Spanish Fly bulkhead is like this and in my opinion is easier to stay in than any other outfitting I've tried.

my 2 cents.

-Jollyman

[John Coraor]

Opinions on outfitting are probably even more varied than opinions on different boat designs - and that's saying a lot!!! Consequently, you have to view all of these responses from the perspective of your own experience, body type, phobias, and personal preferences.

For example, up until two weeks ago I still paddled an old school slalom C-2 with aluminum thwart seats hung from the underside of the deck. Undoubtedly some of you would call it a "death trap," but I have never found it a problem to get my feet out in a wet exit. However, as my oldest son was having trouble getting his size 13 feet under this same seat, I recently converted it to a pedestal with hip pads. Trying it out two weeks ago, I can definitely say that I find the new, improved pedestal seat harder to get out of than my old thwart seat. Go figure!!

Keez, I'm sure there are some paddlers who unbuckle their thigh straps everytime they exit the boat. For some of this group, this may even be a necessary step, without which they can't get out. However, my own personal experience and that of most C-boaters with which I've paddled is that unbuckling the straps is a completely unnecessary action. Despite the fact that my C-1 thigh straps are high up my thighs, as soon as I start to push my feet back and my butt up, my knees automatically back out of the straps. Just to be on the safe side, I would always have a quick release buckle(s) in your thigh strap system, but in my experience they do NOT typically require active release of the buckle in order to quickly and safely exit the boat.

Unfortunately, I have no experience with lap belts and can't comment on them.

John

[sbroam]

I think one of the major concerns with a lap belt has been if you were in a bow-down pin and the lap belt was tight, you might not be able to release it because your buckle would be caught where you were doubled over. [With a very tight bulkhead, you could have exit issues in the same , too.

For open boat, I really like the feel and security of a good double thigh strap set up - it's adjustable and with shock cord holding the straps up, pretty easy to re-enter. I really like a bulkhead for quick exit and re-entry but have never been as secure (for rolling) and miss the adjustability (for layers or other paddlers). My *favorite* set up is a bulkhead low over my knees and a thigh strap. My SF is set up this way as is a C-1. I can hop in without the straps and paddle if I need to, maybe even roll. The extra security of the straps really helps with playing and rolling. $.02

[Jollyman]

I feel like in an emergency wet exit situation, if you really REALLY need to get out of your boat, you'd find a way. As long as there is room to the side of the foot pegs, you can slide your feet back while leaning forward and extending your knees, you can slide out of most anything, although unbuckling may help.

-Jollyman

[wetnobby]

I am with Scott on this...
I really like the Pyranha bulkhead set up, Fly or Prelude with thigh straps. Great control and easy exit when needed.

However that said i have an Esquife Prelude with bulkhead outfitting which i am trying to adapt to.....

So.....how to get snug & comforatable in the boat.
1)I took the thwart over the bulkhead out of the boat.
2)Run a saw straight down the sides of the pedestal...completly cutting off the knee blocks.
3) Trim the seat height if you want...i did 8 1/4".
4) I also cut out the silly curve between seat and back that always seems to be trying to slide you out. (Makes a huge difference!)
5)Drop the knee pads in loose & sit in the boat.
6)Slide the knee pads in down and around until they holding you and comfortable (You may need to shave some off the outside to get the position right)
7)Mark the position, and glue them in place.
8)Trim the tops of the knee blocks if needed (I had to)and re install the thwart

You should now have a boat that fits you like a glove and rolls real easy..mine does(And no straps yet)

It took 15 mins to do and saved all the messing about with surforms and trying to add extra foam.
Hope that helps...

[jakke]

Any picks, sbroam, wetnobby?

I should improve my bulkhead as well (have a air-plane-style lap-belt). But a better fit at the knees is desired as well. Major disadvantage is indeed the diffculty to adapt to layers with a bulkhead.

And I still don't have a reliable roll, so it doesn't really matter . Still some fear to use my lap-belt on the river. No problem with that in the pool though.

[keez]

Thanks for everyone's input and suggestions.
What I should have prefaced is that my roll is pretty bombproof with my current bulkhead outfitting.
The problem is that my butt comes out of the seat sometimes when I'm really getting worked, and my roll becomes less effective.
There appears to be a general consensus that thigh straps provide better control (when using a bulkhead system) than a lap belt.
Going to try a couple of loose set-ups in the boat before bolting it in.
Geoff

[sbroam]

I'm having trouble seeing the difference in exiting the boat between the lap belt and thigh straps.
Considering the confines of the bulkhead cockpit; I would think that getting out of 2 straps over your thighs would be that much more difficult than one across your lap. Hence the request for advise from more learnered paddlers.
I have heard that lap belts=suicide straps.

To address this a little more directly - the couple of times I've experimented with with a lap belt on my own, I used existing top thigh strap anchors. There is no way I could exit without undoing the buckle. I definitely felt more secure, but almost claustrophobically so. Why? The belt crosses your body so much higher than straps do, up almost in your gut - bent over I really think it would be hard to open *any* kind of buckle. Worse with a low seat, maybe less so with a higher seat. Maybe this could be alleviated some by having the anchors a little forward of your hips (but that wouldn't keep your butt down as well). Or, if your buckle(s) were off to the side...

Even with the most secure, tightest thigh strap set ups I have *never* needed to release a buckle to wet exit. I have *always* been able to wiggle free - C-1 or OC-1.

A further note on bulkheads - per a suggestion by WetKnobby, my bulkhead in the SF isn't actually secured... It's friction fit with some blocks under the thwart plus pressure from the air bags adding extra pressure. They hold my knees down well and yet if I needed to get out in a hurry, they would give some. I might glue them in, but they won't come far up my thigh.

Have you considered other means of keeping your "seat" on the seat? Hip blocks? I've seen some that come over the hip (leaning into the boat) - I'm thinking of adding some hip foam to the SF... Backband? I think someone here (PAC?) has used a kayak backband, coming across the lower back (might be some exit issues there, though).

Let us know how your experimenting goes!

That was quite a ramble -

[wetnobby]

Some pictures as asked for...





I found it much easier just to relocate the knee blocks to where they hold me....

Hope that helps..