C-Forum

Andrew westwood is talking about the same things as Tom Foster, except that they give it different names. Andrew has the "catchy" term 2x4 paddling. But basically they tell the same.
Though Andrew is talking about 2x4 for beginners, and learning stern pry and j-stroke and so on, later on, on a less novice level. Where Tom is using his carving inner circles on any type of water.

The size of the boat definetly matters. No cross-bow strokes when you're paddling solo in a traditional boat, way to wide!
But my viper11 OC1 allows both ways and that's why I'm confused. I think I'll try to strive to minimum strokes and maximum efficiency, so that probably means that most of the time I should be paddling on the downstream side of my boat.

Glad to notice I'm not alone in my confusion

Here's an article on this subject by C-1 and OC-1 paddler Jamie McEwan that you all might find interesting.

The article is called "Fast Floaters" and includes a description of a famous Olympic moment of "minimum strokes, maxium efficiency":

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/conte ... 00_page_87_

Alden

Sounds like a good start...

...but don't give up on that upstream. There are times when you'll be glad to have the option. Sometime when working on that count the strokes and reduce drill, try to ferry upstream on your onside. Compare the feel, effort required, results, think about where you might use each one, and notice the lean. Usually you lean a bit upstream while paddling on that side, and consequently lean down stream when on that side of the canoe. There are times-n-places where you may not want to be leaning downstream. Sometimes this becomes especially true, as a downward lean will mimic a peel out, and make you go down river. This will cause you to paddle like hades not to, maybe even while stroking on your offside. This is another instance, where you can do fewer strokes, and get more done (way more). Just try adding to your practice routine in those easy spots (building upward), and you'll notice that the boat really doesn't want to flip upstream - like you initially fear it will.

Of course the downstream side is not the holy grale. There are reasons enough to paddle on the upstream side of your boat.
a current glide ferry is an example of that.
I want to try carving into an eddy using cross-strokes this weekend, see how that feels.
I guess everyone has his own style and technique. The better you paddle, the more you think of how do I this or that move with less effort, less strokes. And that brings up this kind of questions. (btw not claiming I'm a good paddler, I just paddle better then last year ).

I'll study that article as well. Timing is equally important or maybe even more important then where you place your strokes. And there I have lots of work to do. I'm still too nervous, fast paddling. I should find the rest, to read the water and time my strokes, do them when and where they are needed. But hey, that's called learning

The good thing is I start to see things like timing, paddle position, on videos. So the awareness is coming, now the execution .

One thing I sometimes needs to tell myself when paddling solo is that I and both the bow and stern person. When paddling with my girlfriend I don't need all the worry, I am in the stern and she is in the bow, we use a couple of words to make moves on the river. If you have someone to paddle tandem with go to a lake or class II river, I find does two things for me, one it makes paddling things that get boring or old in a solo boat more exciting, the Tuck Gorge I did it last year with my girlfriend, I hated that run, tandem we had a blast in a 16' Legend, second, one can study both bow and stern paddling clear set of mind, you know that you have to be one or the other. Paddle with kids if you have some or become an instructor. You don't have to be class IV paddler to teach Level 2 or 3 canoeing. It will help dial in your technique and also get other interested. And remember on whitewater do what works for you. I don't like to paddle alot in my boat, I have a friend who does we both run the same stuff and get the same results. Remember to HAVE FUN it does not matter if your on a lake or on the Cheoah, we all started do it for fun, that what keeps me paddling.

I try to paddle in the bow as often as possible.
But I have to admit that sometimes when the situation is getting out of my hands and my paddling style is getting getting confused I fall back to this f#! old habit and find myself in the stern

And always I see that I it would have been better to stay in the bow because there is no good bracing hanging around on the back deck.

I couldnt imagine paddling without cross bow strokes whether in my wide impulse or my narrow outrage. When the water gets rough or the current is fast, the power i get paddlin in the bow is crucial for me. Having only been paddlin 3yrs, when I developed reliable confident cross strokes my boating really REALLY improved.
I still carve figure 8's in flatwater often to warm up and its a great way to practice cross bow and leanin to off side. I always thought the kent ford video recommended using stern strokes for stayin on play waves mostly.

who paddles behind themselves. I thought you plant the paddle and pull the boat toward it. A low brace ya that is behind you but a forward stroke from the rear, that ain't right .....is it?I don't know I hardly ever watch myself paddle.

Jakke, you bring up a really good question- when should you steer from the bow vs. the stern in a solo canoe?

We all know that either technique works great most of the time. In fact in many easy paddling situations it probably doesn’t matter whether you control from the bow or stern – just go with personal preference. However, when you start pushing your skill level a bit, the more efficiency you use with each stroke will make difficult moves that much easier. The key will be matching your paddling technique to how you plan to use the current.

Here is the best way to choose bow or stern control strokes. If you are making a cross grain maneuver (across the current) use bow control as it will maintain momentum against the current while you steer toward a target (ex. eddy pool, threading the needle between holes etc).

If you are descending the river with the current (ex. going down chutes, eddying out), use stern control strokes. When travelling with the flow of the current, momentum is rarely an issue and the friction of prys and draws will have little effect on you getting where you are going.

To learn more check my article Sweet Momentum in this issue of Rapid (Spring 2009 Vol 11 No 1). In it I explain when to use Power Steering and Stern Control.

You also mention specific comments with regard to the 2 x 4 (part of the technique of Power Steering). To clarify the application of this skill, I often instruct beginners on Power Steering which introduces the essence of carving. I find that it is easily understood and the skill is even easier to achieve. That said, the skill is not limited to beginner level, rather it is the basis of all our paddling from beginner to advanced.

If you have ever taught beginner paddlers you may have noticed that the ability to acquire the skills of good stern draws, stern prys and J strokes as used in whitewater is shaky at best. This despite many paddlers using the skills in their flatwater paddling already. Because of the difficulty, I often refine these skills in the intermediate and above levels of instruction.

And a brief comment on what side to paddle on – upstream or downstream. Don’t get hung up thinking about the current this way. Rather, always plan on carving your canoe and controlling that motion by paddling on the inside of that carve for control and stability. If you do, then you will always be on the downstream side of the canoe when exiting eddys (when downstream side matters most). If you are finishing a move like an S turn or ferry, plan again to paddle on the inside of the arc which carves your boat toward an eddy. Sure this puts your paddle on the upstream side, but it really doesn’t matter because you are now descending the river with the current (therefore no risk to catching an edge).

Andrew Westwood

I told Andrew would know all about it. However I'm more confused than ever are we talkin about solo or tandom paddling? One question if we talkin tandom is is possible for both people to be both bow or stern paddlers?

ok, I'm back home from a weekends paddling on easy class I and some class II sections.
I had great fun, learned some things
- I finally narrowed down my back-ferry
- I even did some back-surfing
- I did run a very neat line on a class II section
- my eddy turns are still sloppy.
- I did an side-surf with offside brace and later an in-water swim .
- I have some work to do on my tilts. It has to be more pronounced and sharp. Too often some subtle body lean is involved.

Now, I tried carving into an eddy on my offside, using cross forward strokes. No good, I was pulling my bow against the main current, and it was hard work.
I do like cross strokes for short, narrow S-turns though, especially because I can controll speed and boat angle using cross-forward strokes.
I finally got a serious grip on a static draw when surfing .

Now I've been pushing my limits this weekend, doing hard moves on easy water which ended in 5 swims or so.

The sloppy eddie turns is mainly an issue on small, narrow eddies, especially those midstream things. It's probably a combination of speed-angle and which stroke to use when. Most of the time I do get them, but it costs way too much effort. Thsi problem actually brought me to the initial question, since it probably has to do with my eddie-problem.

oh, and indeed, downstream is not always the way to go. Sometimes one agressive pry is more effective then 2 or 3 bow strokes.

The teaching bit: I know. I'm assisting a local instructor (did so past weekend). I know it helps you to think about technique and watch paddling styles... . I'm working towards an Open Canoe Guide certification and afterwards to an instruction certification.

And probably, when it really matters, I think I use stern corrections. But then again, I'm still paddling way to nervous on class III water. Horrible timing, just getting down, not catching too much eddies, ... .

Work enough to do here. But I'm happy I found some new challenges on relatively "easy" water.

Oh, I do believe you (drewcanoe) on the 2x4 technique. Stern strokes are hard to learn and to master. I've been having a discussion with some instructors who start with a J-stroke. Those people are lost on the river after 1 day of flatwater. So making circles is more logic to understand. But you do have to master the tilt to do that.

The carving circles I have to work some more on that, try it some more. But it felt really bad carving an offside circle to catch an offside eddy.

Thanks for the feedback from all of you btw!

Oh, and my issue of Rapid did not make it to Belgium yet.

has anyone already mentioned "thrill of the paddle", by Paul Mason???

no video, but a really good book. I don't own it, (otherwise I could send it tou you for reading), but it shold be still available in case you're interested

i hadn't thought about it too much till i started reading this thread, but i reckon i work more off the front of the boat. i know i'm starting to get tired when i find myself working more off the stern.

Thanks Insolence, I have that book. I read in it from time to time. I never read a canoe book from cover to cover.
And yes indeed, it holds quite some valuable info on certain moves. Here we've seen the offside-tilt re-invented while it already was described in thrill of the paddle.

maybe it's time take up golf....