Wanted: River rating source

the great gonzo · Post by **the great gonzo** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:27 pm

Interresting approach in the difficulty scale on the waldens ridge site, although not all that different from the AW model.
It includes way more graduations in the dower difficulty levels, where they are, imho, not needed.
I like the idea of having the levels split in a decimal system. It still falls short by not differentiating between technical difficulty and danger.
The best rating system IMHO is addisons scale of whitewater difficulty, as it adresses all the aspects like technical difficulty, danger and remoteness.

The problem is not the rating system in itseld, but peple not adhering to it in their rating.

Here is Gonzo's rating system. It's very simple. there are only 3 grades.
There sre rapids I run without thinking twice. Then there are rapids run after scouting for a long time, usually while almost soiling myself. And then there are the ones I gladly walk.

TGG!

Carol · Post by **Carol** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:43 pm

It would be interesting to hear from someone who is able to compare west coast class IV vs east coast class IV drops, are they the same in difficulty???????????

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:04 pm

I can't compare because I haven't been anywhere else (I see no need to go past the sierra), but we might under-rate some IVs. i've boated with a few (class5) boaters fron the east-southeast who have been schooled on some 4-5 runs out here. To quote one last year after walking out "That ain't no class IV...I run 5+ and that ain't no class IV!" . Seems they don't like powerfull holes

But on the other hand, i know jditty comes out here and tears up runs that i'll probably never get the eggs to run, like bald rock.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:13 pm

Oh, oh! That's a whole different thread o' worms. Don't know if we want to add that to the N vs. S & long vs. short !

But OK, . . . Drops in the east look challenging, rivers in the west are challenging.

What I mean is that I think some folks that are accustomed to paddling a certain class of rapid in central or east, come out west and are daunted by the consequences of cold water and continuous rapids.

If you swim in the east, you're floating in a warm pool, so why not kick it up and run that class IV drop. If you swim in the west, see ya', wouldn't want to be ya, and all of a sudden that class III is lookin' a little scarier. So maybe it's not the classes that are different, but I think the consequences often are.

That's my biased generalization anyway. And of course there's exceptions. And it may not matter much to a solid IV+ boater, but I think the mortal III-and-sometimes-IV paddlers might find some of the western rivers under-classed?

It's such an imperfect subjective system anyway, it doesn't matter much. I just know I wish there was warm water and more ledges & falls and playspots in the west, it's a long learning curve out here for canoeists, and a drysuit is a must.

Pat.

Cumnock · Post by **Cumnock** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:20 am

he best rating system IMHO is addisons scale of whitewater difficulty, as it adresses all the aspects like technical difficulty, danger and remoteness.

The problem with Addison's scale is the K.I.S.S. principle.

Keep it Simple Stupid...I like the detail he has...but I don't want people needing a calculator we they look at our creek write-ups.

I want them to read about the creek, then use THEIR past experiences and our baseline. It will give them a better idea if they can handle it or not. I also don't want them intimidated by a complex rating system, keep it simple and keep it short and sweet and you have a better chance of conveying what you are trying to get across to someone.

If someone is running 4.9 rapids and above, they don't need a Classfication System, they know in 15 seconds if they are going to run it or not.

The weekend warrior rec boater on the other hand needs to know if its their cup of tea.

AW's +++++ or - - - -

I have no idea what that means but a 4.1 or a 4.2 . or 4.3....I kinda get a better idea of what's going on and why we use that system on W.R.W.W.

Cumnock · Post by **Cumnock** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:27 am

Interresting approach in the difficulty scale on the waldens ridge site, although not all that different from the AW model.
It includes way more graduations in the dower difficulty levels, where they are, imho, not needed.

Almost forgot....

The reasoning behind that is so the intermediate boater doesn't bite off more than he or she can chew...I'm all about for them taking baby steps so they can get the experience, learn how to read water better and know how to compare one rapid to another.

Stepping up say from the Nanty to the Ocoee, which another site calls it Class IIIish is ...is well a good way to have a long day in or out of your boat.

Our sport can be pretty brutal on the learning curve...hence why you see in the kayaking world all the nice new gear for sale..they purchase it...get over their head...get hammered ....then its on the market

but we are talking about butt boaters...and yes I use two blades myself : )

oopsiflipped · Post by **oopsiflipped** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:50 am

west v east? it might be personal more than geographical. i think the more better a boater runs the more likely they are too sandbag. although louie like to sandbag, too, but only for other stuff other people are going to run. anything he runs is the opposite....(couldn't help myself on that one. gosh was that worth it? i guess i'll find out.)

generally stuff is rated lower out west, imho. i don't think they'd call the lochsa class III here. idahoans love to sandbag. anyone ever been on golden canyon? a big difference is that western paddlers think if a run is class III then it's still class III at flood

BC sandbags worse than cali or idaho, but kiwi's are the worst. if a kiwi ever tells you a drop is grade 4, start walking.

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:47 am

Hadn't paid this much thought I think from here on out everything is going to be Class II plus, i mean half of the class V's from a few years ago are class III/IV now. So I think this will work if some ask what do ya think the Nanty falls are Class II plus, If they ask what do ya thin Sunshine is Class II+. This will solve the whole problem, then if it looks scary to ya dont run it if it dont fire it up

oopsiflipped · Post by **oopsiflipped** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:49 am

i couldn't agree with you more richard! i used to think it was important, but now i think ratings are ridiculous. a rapid is what it is. ratings are a rough guide at best.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:53 am

I tend to think of ratings in terms of paddling groups, and not so much as in regional differences... That boaters develop a pecking order concerning ratings, one that's more determined on group experience. If there's no one in your circle (or few) that have experiences outside the region, then it's easy for perceptions to be skewed. And if your paddling circle has traveled far and wide, there's more homogenization of ratings across the nation (or world). I've seen one particular group of open boaters insist that the line was class5 (one that I had run), no matter how many times I called it Class III... the same line in later discussion with deck boaters (from the same area) had them calling it a III. Just different group dynamics, same line, same level, same geographic area.... and all were considered good boaters. One group was talking screw up potential, and the other degree of difficulty. I will say box-canyons definitely will get your attention(rating wise), if you've never been in one. Some one mentioned Corrin, well didn't he also say the Green was jus-a-bunch of class III lines.

As for that out west mentality, of we got bigger and colder... you guys might temper that by noticing, the steep creek season has just started here... and twenty or thirty degree days are good to go. And BTW - a lot of the higher water days out west, means it gotten warmer. And on the colder days, the levels abate a bit. Of course thats a generalization, of where the section is in relationship to the snow pack. And up north (Canada for instance) is in that east-west repartee. And we will get 8-10-12 inches of rain in a couple days (or hours), which in anyones backyard means big water (20-40-60 grand in a normal 400-500 cfs run).

Also ratings change with time... What was once considered class IV when I started, many times is routinely called less todays... and rightly so. The scale of 2-6 has to be compressed, as the top end (of what once was) is no longer considered near as hard or difficult. So is that class 4-5 section you ran in 1995, still really what most people would call it today. The Upper Yough - Watauga discussion of late, might fit this description.

I think we need to travel farther - paddle more often - and remember sometimes your chain is getting yanked 4-fun!

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:21 am

Ya Gabb anything you say, we know when it comes to me you are always fair and we all know you are always right so please keep talkin we are all hangin on every word you say.

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:18 am

philcanoe wrote:I tend to think of ratings in terms of paddling groups, and not so much as in regional differences... That boaters develop a pecking order concerning ratings, one that's more determined on group experience. If there's no one in your circle (or few) that have experiences outside the region, then it's easy for perceptions to be skewed. And if your paddling circle has traveled far and wide, there's more homogenization of ratings across the nation (or world). I've seen one particular group of open boaters insist that the line was class5 (one that I had run), no matter how many times I called it Class III... the same line in later discussion with deck boaters (from the same area) had them calling it a III. Just different group dynamics, same line, same level, same geographic area.... and all were considered good boaters. One group was talking screw up potential, and the other degree of difficulty. I will say box-canyons definitely will get your attention(rating wise), if you've never been in one. Some one mentioned Corrin, well didn't he also say the Green was jus-a-bunch of class III lines.

As for that out west mentality, of we got bigger and colder... you guys might temper that by noticing, the steep creek season has just started here... and twenty or thirty degree days are good to go. And BTW - a lot of the higher water days out west, means it gotten warmer. And on the colder days, the levels abate a bit. Of course thats a generalization, of where the section is in relationship to the snow pack. And up north (Canada for instance) is in that east-west repartee. And we will get 8-10-12 inches of rain in a couple days (or hours), which in anyones backyard means big water (20-40-60 grand in a normal 400-500 cfs run).

Also ratings change with time... What was once considered class IV when I started, many times is routinely called less todays... and rightly so. The scale of 2-6 has to be compressed, as the top end (of what once was) is no longer considered near as hard or difficult. So is that class 4-5 section you ran in 1995, still really what most people would call it today. The Upper Yough - Watauga discussion of late, might fit this description.

I think we need to travel farther - paddle more often - and remember sometimes your chain is getting yanked 4-fun!

You got it. I couldn't agree more.
...but that bigger and colder thing was pat, he's got cold up there in seattle. Not me, i don't do cold. I paddle all winter, but it's mild around here. Saw snow stacking up on my float bags once and that was enough

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:04 am

I wasn't talking about cold during winter or shoulder-season paddling (we've got it relatively easy in that respect, compared to central & eastern Canada!) I'm talking about the ice-cold water mid-summer - the continuous rivers and cold water provide some extra disincentive to risking long swims. I'm just sayin' I might take a warm-water pool-and-drop class IV river over a continuous & cold class III.

Pat.

cadster · Post by **cadster** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:42 pm

What rapids or rivers would you like to compare?

Amongst experienced boaters regardless of location, there is good agreement about the difference between a III and a IV. The change between a IV and a V is where people disagree the most. It's also where you see the most downgrading with time.

Carol wrote:It would be interesting to hear from someone who is able to compare west coast class IV vs east coast class IV drops, are they the same in difficulty???????????

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:41 pm

yarnellboat wrote:I wasn't talking about cold during winter or shoulder-season paddling (we've got it relatively easy in that respect, compared to central & eastern Canada!) I'm talking about the ice-cold water mid-summer - the continuous rivers and cold water provide some extra disincentive to risking long swims. I'm just sayin' I might take a warm-water pool-and-drop class IV river over a continuous & cold class III.

Pat.

Sorry Pat, . . . thought we had been talking about paddling whitewater and the sport in general?

If this is a you and me discussion, why would I travel 2752 miles to paddle Class III? I can see where you wouldn't, but I'd rather find some cold continuations class IV-V. Heard that 'Oh - it's cold' now for about the upteenth-time... been there, done that, will gladly do it again, and yes in summer. This is what some of us are looking for and talking about....

While I'm not in this video, these are some of the usual crew and what we run around here...http://vimeo.com/6501106... and a few canoe pics of the same place http://www.waldensridgewhitewater.com/w ... 8GA%29.htm... May have to slow down one day and get some (new-school video) footage, but really hate going that slow... because I'm usually the guy out front and gone. Only reason these exist, is because of the big-production it took to gain access.

As for that continuous big 'COLD' western water.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV3eenZiQ88 I'm thinking about a notch below this: and you? I'm simply just one of several eastern open boaters looking the same.

Which may also answer another thread, why long boats.... (or why short plastic canoes are so popular.)