Using rescue belts w/ rear slider/buckle

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:54 am

Good point Neil, I bought the rescue belt separately, so perhaps it comes with the that place-holder system for the d-ring to ensure that it doesn't slide around all over the place, including to the side or front!

I wasn't sure how weird it would be to have it slide across the back, but I guess it's no big deal compared to having the webbing jam in the slider!

If people don't the rear plate-thing I'm talking about, it's similar to the front plat, and you can kinda see it this product picture:
http://www.northwater.com/html/products ... -Belt.html

I think I'll the ditch the rear plate and just put the d-ring straight on the webbing.

Pat.

wannabe whitewater girl · Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:32 pm

Astral Green vest: the "O" ring slides freely on the belt, which runs through 1" webbing "loops" in the rear (spaced 10" apart- more towards the sides really than on the back) secured to the vest...yes, the ring has room to slide (10" worth), but I've never had that be an issue in a tethered swim (which I train doing twice a year most years)...not sure how it would be in a tow...

...for the record, the FRONT release buckle, fully threaded, will not release under my weight (even in a fairly good current) - I have to hook my thumb under the webbing next to the slider & give it a tug to release - not hard to do, just an extra step...-...I wear the vest with it full threaded (just so I don't forget how!), but haven't decided if I'd risk an actual live-bait rescue (or similar use) with me needing a 2-step release...guess it would depend on the situation...

Creeker · Post by **Creeker** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:01 pm

Yarnellboat,

I think this setup is at the least suspect. I'd need to see a good pic of how it's attached to the PFD before actually saying for sure.

In general I prefer a pfd designed to be a rescue pfd with all the gear on it ready to make it work. That D ring plate I would guess increases the complexity and friction of excaping the D Ring. You could use your energy or golden couple seconds to only half unthread from the front or back plate. I've minorly cracked cartilidge in my sternum from a hit on my astral 300 rescue pfd after grabbing someone in current. Experiences like that hone your attention on forces involved and the difference of 3 or 5 seconds to excape the D Ring. In ACA training we are on class 2+ at best. How many of us are boating class 2+ only. The risks rise dramaticly into class 3 and above.

My friend on a class 2+ river thought he was Superman..."oh I'll clip to the boat and pull it to shore".....he didn't practice much but he was a good class 4 boater & trained. He failed to get both his boat and the towed boat to clear a midstream rock of average size. The boat center "pinned" for a moment on the rock solid enough pull him into the hole behind the rock. He flipped. His hard pull in the hole pulled the center pin off the rock and a 400 lbs boat dropped into the hole like a heat seeking missle....and punched out a couple ribs.

the real deal was he pulled the release belt before the towed boat hit the "pinning/hangup" rock. He realized he wasn't free and was in the process of unthreading the belt the way whitewatergirl described. It just went too fast. Unless you anticipate this stuff and react lightning fast with gear that does not tend to screw up, ugly things can and do happen.

I just added the above account, not that it really speaks to anyones post. I hope it doen't happen to anyone here.

Paddle Power · Post by **Paddle Power** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:27 pm

Pat, if yours is a Northwater belt, call them and ask.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:58 pm

Yup, of course I will do that, planned for next week - I just want to be as informed/useful as possible before hand, as I'm relatively new to rescue belts and tethered swimming.

North Water is a first class operation and of course they are very interested in and responsive to the issue I experienced, and, at their invitation, my belt & I will be dropping by their shop to see what we can learn.

Pat.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:25 am

North Water was very responsive to hearing from me about the jammed belt and invited me in to look at it. In the end, it turns out I had it threaded incorrectly (the end of the belt that the D-ring slides off should not get threaded back through the steel slider (at the rear), but only through the plastic piece.

As a result of letting them know my concern, they will be improving their instructions and photos to make them more "idiot proof" (what does that say about me?).

Anyway, if you use a quick-release belt that has a some stuff at the rear to keep the D-ring in place, make sure the tail doesn't need to travel though a narrow steel slider, and that it releases smoothly when pulled at a big angle, not just straight back.

Pat.

p.s. You should also anchor the buckle-half of the belt to the PFD, so that the release cord can't slide around on you and you always know where to find it; and don't wear it too low on your guts, the pressure on the guts (e.g. at the waist of your PFD) squishes you and makes it harder to breathe, get the belt up on your chest.

Pat.

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:58 am

Credit to Northwater for adding some new pics and details to prevent other "idiots" from mis-threading the rescue belt. The company/owner was more than happy to get the feedback and make some changes.

I just noticed the changes on the website now, but they probably got to it quickly. Good for them.

http://www.northwater.com/html/products ... -Belt.html

Pat.

the great gonzo · Post by **the great gonzo** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:08 am

I woulds personally ditch any kind of buckle or other device that attempts to center the D-ring on the back of the PFD. It is simply not needed and only adds friction into the system.

TGG!

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:25 am

Smurfwarrior wrote:FYI I never run the webbing through the metal buckle just the plastic quick release. I heard that was only for rescue situations not for towing. My QR strap was loose and behind me not hung up on the buckle.

I'd never use my harness threaded through one of those metal plates, not for towing (SeaKayaks), not for live baiting, and most certainly not for securing myself into a belay.

The problem is two fold: they stop the buckle popping under force, and given that the buckle should fail at around the level of force required to start damaging your ribcage, that doesn't seem so bright.

Secondly, if the webbing is pulled tight, they won't slip, holding you into the system until the tension is released, which if you're in the middle of a live bait when it goes pete-tong and you need to escape the system, is not a good thing.

Lappie · Post by **Lappie** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:43 pm

i don't think anybody mantion it, but be sure also to trim that rescue belt as short as practical, it will help a lot in the release process!! mine is about 1 1/2" pass the front of the closed buckle when wearing the vest!

Todhunter · Post by **Todhunter** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:27 pm

Lappie wrote:i don't think anybody mantion it, but be sure also to trim that rescue belt as short as practical, it will help a lot in the release process!! mine is about 1 1/2" pass the front of the closed buckle when wearing the vest!

Good advice - I am going to trim mine right away!

yarnellboat · Post by **yarnellboat** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:30 pm

Some people would argue that you want enough of a "tail" left on the belt so that you could grab a fist full to have the option of pulling it to release the buckle, in case something happens with finding the buckle's actual cord. Plan B is good to have.

@ Krikitt, this was about a place-holder plate for the d-ring at the rear of the PFD, not the metal plate at the front buckle - and, the friction plate at front is there for a reason, not all people create the same amount of force in the same situation, so big folks should consider using the friction plate for something like live bait. Your buckle realeasing prematurely could be as big a problem as it not releasing - so test & judge individually and for the specific situation. 250lbs people should take advice on this from 150lbs people, and vice versa!

Bottom line, make sure you test your gear to ensure you know it works, and that you know how it works for you in which situations.

I'm going to re-try the rear plate, and I'll use it as long as I can assure myself that it won't affect release when threaded properly, but I won't worry about it if I go withoput either, especially now that I've got belt loops on my PFD (without there's a possibility that the d-ring could slide to anywhere, which could be a problem).

Pat.

Lappie · Post by **Lappie** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:25 am

Maybe 1 1/2" is a little short for a tail... That said, I know mine, release and unfeed it self easely!! I wouldn't have it(the tail) longer than 3", that is for sure!!

mahyongg · Post by **mahyongg** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:01 pm

I have seen very soft, rather loose webbing with rougher surface used in rescue belts and I have seen the smooth type similar to car safety belts. In light of the discussion here I would suspect the soft ones to jam easier in any kind of buckle or feed-through, does anybody have any experience regarding the type of material used?

Very helpful btw. since I am on the lookout, thinking about a new vest for next season and wondering which belt setup I should be looking for.

Cheers,

Jan

mahyongg · Post by **mahyongg** » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:13 pm

I have seen very soft, rather loose webbing with rougher surface used in rescue belts and I have seen the smooth type similar to car safety belts. In light of the discussion here I would suspect the soft ones to jam easier in any kind of buckle or feed-through, does anybody have any experience regarding the type of material used?

Very helpful btw. since I am on the lookout, thinking about a new vest for next season and wondering which belt setup I should be looking for.

Cheers,

Jan