C-Forum

Would new designs not be easier to make from composite materials? I think composite has a bad rap. There needs to be a better way to get new ideas to the paddling stage. We can not expect the manufactures to always do it. We are a very specialized market with a ceiling with what the market will pay for a new boat.
I personally think there is too fingers in line to make money from boats- dealers, reps and on down the line. It is a business model that has limitations.
If manufactures sold their limited design models at a same price as retail and elimanted the middle man they could make more on each boat.
I think this would work on specialized boats with very limited markets.

john h wrote:...
and krikkitwars, i agree they do it very well. and a boat for every occasion is great but are there enough people paddling every different style to warrant all the different models? what is esquif doing differently that allows them to have a bunch of models when the competition have so few?
...

What is the cost of having the molds laying around until until you have enough orders to justify pulling them over to the assembly floor/oven/foundry/... ? As long as you have room and there is at least occasional demand that you can meet while still making a buck/loonie, then why not? I think it is awesome that Esquif (and Mohawk) still have even old models available whereas Dagger/Mad River/Bell are not only not innovating but also discontinuing boats.

john h wrote:and krikkitwars, i agree they do it very well. and a boat for every occasion is great but are there enough people paddling every different style to warrant all the different models? what is esquif doing differently that allows them to have a bunch of models when the competition have so few?

Once they've invested in the moulds, then they can choose to produce enough of each to meet the respective demand, they don't actively lose money unless they keep making more of a boat than they can sell...

Yes... but how long does it take them to recoup that investment in to the design / production of the mould.

I don't think Craig, Jeremy, or myself for that matter like to ponder how many hours we have in to our designs in terms of what it would cost to pay someone else to do it. And I've consciously never kept track of material costs that go in to the production of all the prototypes, them the final mold.

If you work for free, and scavenge, it isn't TOO bad.

If you are paying for folks to do it, I suspect you've got to sell quite a few boats. Boatbuilders aren't getting rich off us paddlers, in case you haven't noticed.

Sir Adam wrote:Yes... but how long does it take them to recoup that investment in to the design / production of the mould.

Depends how popular the product is, I'd hazard a guess that the L'edge will recoup it's costs quicker than say the Raven...

ya, and the raven is rolalex. i can't imagine that someone who orders a royalex boat would like hearing the company was waiting until the get enough orders to pump some out. secondly, i don't know much about the materials but isn't royalex supposed to cure for a while before it gets banged around?

i'm not trying to be provocative, and i think esquif is great (i just plunked down 1000 toonies for a new spanish fly) i'm just curious how it all works.

it almost seems to me that PE is the way of the future simply because it allows companies to get an order, make the boat and ship it out ready to be paddled (nevermind the durability). or am i wrong about that?

I have no idea what I'm talking about; but I've always kind of wondered if the relative pace of innovation of new models in kayak versus canoe has something to do with life expectancy of molds. That is, a given mold is only good for "X" number of boats before it is trash. Once "X" number of boats come out of the original mold, the manufacture must make the big investment in a new mold. At the time the manufacturer needs to make the new mold, they can choose to either make an identical mold and keep producing the same model, or they can incorporate any new ideas they may have developed since building the previous mold. Either way, the expense of the new mold is going to be roughly the same.

A manufacturer making a lot of kayaks will reach "X" number of boats every few years. In contrast, because the canoe market is so small, it may take a decade to reach "X". Again, I know nothing and I'm just shooting off my mouth. But if this theory is correct, kayak manufactures simply get the opportunity to innovate a lot more often than canoe manufactures.

On a seperate issue, I would guess that the initial investment in a mold for roylex hulls is a lot higher than a mold for PE; but the roylex mold has a longer useful life in terms of number of units that can be produced. Again, I have zero facts and no experience; but that's the impression I get from seeing pictures of each. If this is true, that would be another reason why canoe manufactures (Esquif appears to be the exception here) are not all that keen to introduce new models. Since most of the old models are roylex, there is a very strong disinsentive to introduce new designs. Not only would new designs require big investments in new molds, but they would also render the otherwise still usefull old molds as obsolete.

cheajack wrote:A few years ago I bought into the guilt trip laid out here that if consumers don't buy the product then the manufactures go away.

In the meantime, I have little interest in spending two grand on a boat to keep a manufacturer in business so they can complain about their customer base on the forum.

I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not but let me make it crystal clear that the assertions and opinions I express here or elsewhere are my own... and not that of any company. Always have been... always will be.

john h wrote:what is esquif doing differently that allows them to have a bunch of models when the competition have so few?

Being courageous and willing to take risks in the market... sometimes it works and sometimes it hasn't.

Yukon wrote:I personally think there is too fingers in line to make money from boats- dealers, reps and on down the line. It is a business model that has limitations.

Possibly depending on your viewpoint... but imo this system keeps a lot of people employed in various places and in thoery it also makes it more easy for people to demo boats and actually walk into a store and put their hands on a product. I don't know about you but I've purchased a few items over the years that I wasn't able to see or try in person that gave me buyers remorse afterwards.

Sir Adam wrote:I don't think Craig, Jeremy, or myself for that matter like to ponder how many hours we have in to our designs...

or sleepless nights either...




Lastly... I feel fairly comfortable saying that Esquif or Mohawk are both more than happy to make any boats from their existing molds as they are ordered. Royalex type boats especially. In the big picture they are both small companies and can pop out boats relatively quickly once an order has been placed. From what I've seen shipping canoes quickly and cheaply is the bigger issue... it's not like we're talking about a carboard box full of cell phones here.

Sorry about derailing the thread... but there's really a lot of interesting innovation and ideas floating around out there from many c-boaters that I'd actually like to see made... but I stand by my initial assertions that unless people are willing to continue to actually keep purchasing new canoes and show an interest in growing the consumer base... a lot of them will just stay "ideas"

/\/\/\ anyone seen a freshly release plastic C1 lately??? /\/\/\

At some point I'd really love to work on a boat with Kaz and Jeremy... it'd be faster than greased lightning, be able to perform donkey-helix-air-McNasties on a eight inch wave, run Niagra Falls blindfolded and backwards... and oh... it'd weigh four lbs. and you could run it down a hundred foot slide made from razor blades in the dark while drinking a beer.

You have got to create demand. Then we'll start seeing money dumped into ww canoe designs.

A wise man once said to me, "Most peeps want to be Xtreme and grab press time."(talking about why kayaking is so big)

Well nothing is more extreme than going Full Gnarlz in an OC1. We have just got to help the 'otherside' realize that... and believe me, I'm working on it. Hard.

It will catch. mark my words.... Grow the sport = grow our choices + cheaper boats. It's as simple as that.

Craig Smerda wrote: /\/\/\ anyone seen a freshly release plastic C1 lately??? /\/\/\

Anyone seen a reason to?

FullGnarlzOC wrote:Well nothing is more extreme than going Full Gnarlz in an OC1.

Yeah there is. It's doing it without an electric pump.

Definitely a good discussion so far - here's a thought to ponder - now that plastic is getting more expensive, will Glass make a comeback?

You can create just about any shape you want to from it, anyone with space (even outside) can work with it, and it doesn't cost a fortune like PE.

Now, I realize that for rock-bashing creek style plastic is best - you'll get NO argument from me there.

But unless you are creeking full time, or enjoy creeking a lot and only have one boat, why not try glass?

And if you don't see what you want, BUILD IT! In the past few years 3 of us have designed and produced a boat we saw a need for.

FullGnarlzOC wrote:Well nothing is more extreme than going Full Gnarlz in an OC1. We have just got to help the 'otherside' realize that... and believe me, I'm working on it. Hard.

186ft, beat it!

TheKrikkitWars wrote:

FullGnarlzOC wrote:Well nothing is more extreme than going Full Gnarlz in an OC1. We have just got to help the 'otherside' realize that... and believe me, I'm working on it. Hard.

186ft, beat it!

respect--><--respect

Tyler may have went over the lip as a kayaker... but clearly he came out of the veil a bit smarter... as a c-boater.

http://vimeo.com/6514728



Ooooooooooooooooooh... this gives me food for thought and a whole rash of concepts... sitting down, skirt, canoe paddle... o.k. I've gotta run... time to start rendering... this could be the next "big thing" and way cooler than SUP'ng

this could be the next "big thing" and way cooler than SUP'ng

I know I'm getting off topic, but years ago a fellow showed up to paddle the Hudson Gorge in his squirt boat (K style). Low volume beast for sure (decks awash with water just sitting, so not expert chop, but low enough). Anyway, he forgot his paddle. so he borrowed one from raft company (canoe paddle).

I give him loads of credit - paddle WAY too long for him... in a squirt boat.... in spring... on a class IV gorge run where the only way out if something goes wrong is down the river (17 miles road to road).

I've paddled a only slightly higher volume Acrobat down it... but there's no way I'd do it with the wrong stick (mostly because that extra paddle blade confuses me ).


I've noticed from compiling the virtual boat museum that designs seem to go through fits and spurts - there will be a period of years of a few designers putting out new designs, working off one another, then NOTHING for a few years... then it repeats... often with different designers, but sometimes a few who slog it out year after year... some getting a paycheck, others doing it for the love of canoes and designing different boats and pushing the limits.

If a durable, cost-effective composite (glass) material comes to market I think things will really change in terms of designs out there. The problem with plastic isn't just the cost - it's the weight. I have yet to paddle it, but by all accounts Craig has produced an awesome boat - but no review I've seen yet has said "wow, can't believe how light it is". I'm sure it's durability will be right up there, but that's the price being paid for it now (cost plus weight).

Anyone here ever build a Dynel creek boat? Dynel cloth is not that expensive.... but is MISERABLE to work with.....