An Eventful Upper Millers Run

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:16 am

What scares me about painters is not how they're stored, it's that you're swimming with a rope attached to a big butt boat.
So you're swimming and holding the rope, and you follow your boat into a hole. The boat stops in the hole and you catch up and procede to get pummeled by the hole and your boat..It only takes a foot or so of loose rope to wrap around your wrist.. or worse, your foot. Then your hosed.
You guys are taking some big risks and I don't think it's worth it.

As for tying up your boat. I wear a hoopie (11' of webbing wrapped tightly around my waist). I've used it for that and a million other things. But I never use it while swimming

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:41 am

I flipped at the end of a familiar RIII rapid while paddling tandem. The boat had long painters and one worked itself loose and wrapped around my right ankle. As soon as I surfaced from the dump the boat caught the main current and I was immediately pulled underwater again and dragged through the washout. It was scary just how hard it was to keep my head above water. The bow paddler eventually pulled the boat to slower current and only then could I manage to cut the rope with my pfd knife. This event probably only lasted 30 seconds but it was a very scary experience. I cant begin to imagine how bad this could have been if it had occurred at the top of the rapid.

Yukon · Post by **Yukon** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:15 am

I teach the system that Lapie uses, A small throw bag on the stern about 35 -40 feet long. The goal is to swim with the bag to shore before you need to start pulling your boat. Or you can swim around one side of rock and stop your boat that way. It has it place and also it risks but so does paddling with out. I have spent much time to figure out the best bungi arrangement to hold the bag securely in place but still makes it easy to for the swimmer to pull out. found puttiing the bungi through holes on side of boat just under the gunnels way more effective than through holes on top of deck plate.

The system has also stopped runaway boats when the swimmer has abandoned the boat, eventually the throw bag chocked itself and stopped the boat after 1 mile downstream chase, and it the boat didnt stop there is surely would have become part of a log jam.

I find short painters dont give u many options in a river. I have seen some schools put a dog snap onto their grap loop which makes it really easy to achor a bunch of boats in an eddy with only one boat tied to shore.

Having a rope wrapped around a body part is very nerve racking and all paddlers should carry a knife.

I dont like to prescribe to right and a wrong as we all have different factors that play into the equation. the types of rivers, who we paddle with, other risks we may have to account for etc. The big thing is to understand your system and its limitiations and be open to changing things or reanalyzing when you get different information.

Thats the great thing about a board like this is a really sharing of ideas and stories much more than collective experience of any given region could gain.

Wiggins · Post by **Wiggins** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:19 am

I am not a fan of painters. Strong currents can rip the rope out of the boat, and after that it is a disaster looking for a victim.

I have a tow tether on a rescue PFD mainly because I bought it before I ever towed anything in a rapid. I'll still tow boats in flat water between drops under ideal conditions (such as when I can right and empty the boat first), but mostly I bulldoze.

For those who like the throwbag painters, why not use raft flip lines that come in bags?

Kyle

Post by **sbroam** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:26 am

I bought a rescue PFD with a tow harness not because I ever plan to be live bait (except maybe for one of my children). I only ever consider towing something (with a harness) on flatwater and then more likely on a lake to assist a tired boater. I liked the more rugged construction and took the belt off.

I can't say I've ever used the painters while swimming - it's when you need to manage the boat while on a rock or near shore. I kinda like that flip line idea...

Yukon · Post by **Yukon** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:10 am

I have looked at a few raft flip lines,
I get my end bags custom made for me. The end up being more flat and no buckles to interfer with deploying. We run a lot of tandem courses. In the past we had a bag on bow and stern and had to stop that as swimmers were not communicating and each pulling a bag. Which was not a good thing. I have even toyed with an idea of making a bag sleeve that would be mounted on the stern deck- would securely keep throw bag or painter in place but easily deployed when needed. Maybe this year.

I totally agree with having rope floating can be a dangerous thing and it should not come out until a swimmer purposely pulls it out.

I have used a few different tow systems when Instructing which is a different game than creeking. Sometimes i use a floating line that goes from the thwart in front of me to the back grab loop and back to the thwart with a biner. it is tied to the thwart with a horsethieft knot and entire thing is easily rid of. Having it go through the stern grab loop keeps any towed boat behind you and elimates possibility of a side ways pull.

On my pfd I have a sea kayak tow line that i can either use as a standard pigtail open it up to be 15 feet. It has it limitations but also it place.

As for creeking or continous rapids I would not be too keen towing in a decked boat, Open I would be more likely to be comfortable.

Maybe I need to find a way to practice releasing my tow belt as I am swimming with a boat. Better to practice and find limitations than in the real situation

Smurfwarrior · Post by **Smurfwarrior** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:18 am

I run with one tied to the front of the boat, tucked in deep and way out of the way. It doesn't come out unless I want it too. What scares me is when I see people with loose ropes trailing behind them from where they had a line coiled on the stern and now its a floating knot waiting to chock in a rock mid rapid. Picture that and trying to get out of it. Wouldn't be fun.

I too like the forward bow line for jumping out of the boat, quick knot to a tree and off I go leaving boat in the water moored to shore. I also have my airbag cage worked out so I can lock my paddle into it with a jam and a twist so I don't have to worry about it.

Everyone does things differently so I don't think anyone is more right than anyone else. Find what works for you, and practice it.

cheajack · Post by **cheajack** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:14 am

I often carry a piece of 1" flat webbing and a biner like Larry's "hoopie". If I am paddling C-1 I tuck it under the tunnel of a dry top. If in an OC I stuff it in a pfd pocket. I don't like carrying it tied around my waist. hop out, clip the biner in a grab loop and tie your boat off to something on shore. I almost never tow a boat by a rope and also favor the bull doze method.

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:37 am

Yes,

it seems there can always be a downside (sic

) to most actions. So while painters can be a big risk, they also can be extremely useful. While creek'n and especially on exploratory runs I always make sure to attach at least one long beefy painter. While everyone else is (up in the poison ivy) hiking, bush whacking, and boulder hopping, I've lowered down 10-15-20 feet at a time and scouted that next drop. Remember that includes boat length. Often I'll lower that first drop onto rock, and boat the rest of a drop... that others can't get to. Or lower one side, step in ferry across, then lower drop on other side. Canoe's can very often out-pace their deck-ed brethren in this manner. With a good length painter you can also loop a tree, and walk down a canoe like a ladder...(yes u can throw rope it)... this alone can get you invited back, when with a new crew. And the ability to grab a painter, get away from a loaded boat, and to a rock is a mighty big plus... you can even swim to the other side of rock from your boat, and let the painter grab it. The ability to self rescue, will not only help get you included back, it also helps keep from placing others in harms way. Don't they teach securing any rope in like 'Canoeing 101' or the prerequisite 'Intro to Whitewater' ? I've seen air-bag lacing that scared me more.

On less demanding or other type runs, I always double loop a prussic around my waist with a self-locking parabiner, and forgo the painter. This allows for a quick get to and attachment.... and I can keep the loop in my lower hand while stroking (like Tommy said in orig post), and can let go immediately or at that last moment (another good reason, to be able to paddle on both sides). I find this really nice, as when the load starts getting tough - you can pull/jerk the boat forward, then stroke, and again, and again. And having that extra length of reach with you all the time, can be a life saver for you, as well as someone else. Especially when coupled with a paddle. As already mentioned, that dope-on-a-rope PFD is on the wish list... but (like also said), I can't imagine ever using one to tow a boat around.

As for the Craig boat-up post

I've not read his complete list of reasons... but often if there's a lot of trapped air under a overturned boat, it's way beneficial to keep it there. In this manner (if floating high) they seem much easier to push around (IMHO), and can also be mighty nice to climb up on it a pinch (again IMHO)

. You want to get cursed quick, flip my floating high boat over.. and you'll think twice next time. In fact I'll often grab the end of a full kayak... lift.. pour some water out... leave turned over... and fling it forward into a ferry angle. And Yes - a full canoe upside down sucks, as the ends grab, and the decks get pulled off, and the gunwales seem to lodge everywhere, and they weigh tons.

2opnboat1 · Post by **2opnboat1** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:39 pm

Right after the rescue PFD's becam the must have. Me and a few friends where at the green and someone went swim. after all the water arobics where over we had to reunite boater and boat. My buddy cliped his tow harness to the boat pulled out of the eddy and flipped after a few roll attempts he swam. So now we have two boats in the water and boaters scattered all over. as the tower started to get pulled down stream with a water filled kayak hook to him. He went to one side of a rock on the boat went to the other. To make a long story short It was bad and almost got real bad. Tower had to take his PFD off to keep from breathing water.. Luckily It all worked out . But sense then I will not wear a rescue harness. Painters are good But like Phil I only tie one one if it hard or on something totally new

ian123 · Post by **ian123** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:04 pm

I don't really have any experience with a tow tether, but it sounds like the bad situations are mostly the result of poor decision making and not so much a safety issue with pigtails... for example, clipping into flotationless kayak, in moving water above a downed tree... holy shiit... That kind of decision making can kill you all on it's own.

I think the type of river you re on has a lot to do with wearing a tether also. There wasn't a single place on most of the rivers I paddled and ALF that I would ever want to be attached to someone's boat but on most rivers up here, the rapids are separated by lakes or long stretches of flat water.

clarion · Post by **clarion** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:34 pm

At the put in it's a good idea to remind everyone to take a look at how everyone else has their painters (if any) attached. That way it's not a complete mystery if you want to deploy someone elses. Of course, I don't always remember to do this.

Yukon · Post by **Yukon** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:54 pm

On courses I make sure every boat is set up the same way and I teach people to encourage their group to ALL use very similar methods for painters or end bags and also for tying in gear on trips. If everyone uses the same knots, rope etc it can really help in bad situations as may be one less thing to think about. Ie for tied in gear on a wilderness trip with boat pinned in a sweeper, if you know u just have to find the short end of the quick release to pull out the gear it makes life easier.

Shep · Post by **Shep** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:49 pm

ian123 wrote:I don't really have any experience with a tow tether, but it sounds like the bad situations are mostly the result of poor decision making and not so much a safety issue with pigtails... for example, clipping into flotationless kayak, in moving water above a downed tree... holy shiit... That kind of decision making can kill you all on it's own.

I think the type of river you re on has a lot to do with wearing a tether also. There wasn't a single place on most of the rivers I paddled and ALF that I would ever want to be attached to someone's boat but on most rivers up here, the rapids are separated by lakes or long stretches of flat water.

In all of these conversations, I haven't seen a situation where a tether attached to me isn't potentially dangerous. I have seen OB instructor canoes at one base set up with a cleat on the rear thwart for towing, and I have seen a sea kayak instructor's personal boat at a completely different OB base with a cleat mounted on the stern deck. If you are going to tow, attaching two boats together is safer than attaching a person to a boat. Further, in my experience, towing a boat attached to your body is a LOT more awkward than towing a boat attached to your boat.

But... I'm still pro-painter.

Shep

Craig Smerda · Post by **Craig Smerda** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:57 pm

Who was the guy that used to surf He11 Hole with his canoe tied to the bridge on the Ocoee ?