While it may be a beginner boat, there is still lots about the Raven that is good.
Its not an edgy hot-rod of a boat, but it is stable and forgiving. These qualities can be very useful for newer paddlers as they get comfortable in whitewater, improve their strokes, river reading, etc. When somebody gets tired of the fact that the Raven doesn't spin well, or accelerate quickly, or carve agressively, they can find a new boat that suits their needs at that point.
Some new paddlers might want a more agressive boat that pushes them to develop their skills quickly (with potentially lots of swimming in the interim). Others might be content to learn more slowly and stay a little more upright...for that type of paddler, the Raven is a great boat.
Esquif Raven ??
Moderators: kenneth, sbroam, TheKrikkitWars, Mike W., Sir Adam, KNeal, PAC, adamin
"You should buy a Raven. I wouldn't paddle one because it's not fun, but you re a beginner and so you won't know any better"
Seriously though, unless you can get a great deal on one, there are a couple of posts above recommending a outrage or a rival over the Raven. Lots of experienced paddlers love the outrage... I d go with that.
Seriously though, unless you can get a great deal on one, there are a couple of posts above recommending a outrage or a rival over the Raven. Lots of experienced paddlers love the outrage... I d go with that.
...
There is beginner and then there is BEGINNER. I think a lot of times we canoosters think of beginner WW paddlers as folks who have spent some time paddling some sort of canoe or other before deciding to come over to the WW scene. Those kinds of "beginners" have some seat time and some water reading skills. Maybe those people get their first WW boat with some edge or other performance attributes.
But for a rank beginner at paddling who jumps immediately into the WW world (the way the kayakers drag them in off the street every day) I think a boat like the Raven has its place. Talk about sensory overload! Everything is new. The current, water reading, single sticking it. Everything.
If we're ever going to start pulling 'em in off the streets, I think we need to be realistic about what kind of boat would lessen the initial impact and total sensory overload. I could see a Raven for that. Even the Gnarlz started out in a forgiving boat (ME, I think).
But for a rank beginner at paddling who jumps immediately into the WW world (the way the kayakers drag them in off the street every day) I think a boat like the Raven has its place. Talk about sensory overload! Everything is new. The current, water reading, single sticking it. Everything.
If we're ever going to start pulling 'em in off the streets, I think we need to be realistic about what kind of boat would lessen the initial impact and total sensory overload. I could see a Raven for that. Even the Gnarlz started out in a forgiving boat (ME, I think).
Last edited by clarion on Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
It AIN'T bent.
Advice
There was a time, not to long ago, when I would advise my friend with great certainty on what boat to buy but... it's her money, her time, and her passion and I try not to do that anymore.
Bonding with the first boat or selling it is gonna be her experience to be treasured, kinda like your first good surf and your first trash swim.
I've suggested that she monitors this thread.
Sometimes I think that I moved up too quickly to a Viper 11 and spent too much energy just surviving.
I "might" have become a better paddler in a less responsive canoe on practice waves & holes that would have given easier-to-analyse feedback.
In a sharp chined hot hull the input and the output went by so fast that subtle learning wasn't going to happen.
IMHO one of the changes in canoeing is that there are now hotter boats for advanced paddlers but there are also more "learner friendly" boats being manufactured. In my experience the average paddler now becomes a better paddler in a shorter time in these canoes.
Bonding with the first boat or selling it is gonna be her experience to be treasured, kinda like your first good surf and your first trash swim.
I've suggested that she monitors this thread.
Sometimes I think that I moved up too quickly to a Viper 11 and spent too much energy just surviving.
I "might" have become a better paddler in a less responsive canoe on practice waves & holes that would have given easier-to-analyse feedback.
In a sharp chined hot hull the input and the output went by so fast that subtle learning wasn't going to happen.
IMHO one of the changes in canoeing is that there are now hotter boats for advanced paddlers but there are also more "learner friendly" boats being manufactured. In my experience the average paddler now becomes a better paddler in a shorter time in these canoes.
Last edited by Einar on Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clarion pointed something out to me a few months ago that I think is valid to this discussion. He has observed the tendency for the more experienced canoeists to sometimes forget what it was like to start out. This becomes apparent in this discussion because for many the idea of paddling a Raven is unappealing because it is not a high performance design.
A good many of the open boaters that I know have been in the sport long enough that they went through a progression of boats to get to where they are now. In some cases they were starting out in more challenging boats but many of them came from classic canoes or some of the older, larger WW canoes that were more forgiving. Many of them also came out of kayaks so they already knew how to read water and balance. The progression to shorter, edgier boats has increased the performance of the newer canoes but it has also made many of them harder to paddle for a newbie.
I personally saw some of this when I started transitioning from a big Prospector 15' (set up for solo) to my little 9'6" Stinkeye. My little boat is stable and not too edgy but it is short and getting it to move forward under power has been my biggest challenge. It's not too bad when there is not the need for a lot of torque in milder water but in bigger water it became all consuming trying to just not spin and everything else became too much to focus on. As Clarion put it, sensory overload. The difficulties that I was having were not the ones that were anticipated be most of the more experienced paddlers because they had developed a good forward stroke over a period of time and a series of canoes. There is something to be said for a boat that is less performance oriented and more forgiving when trying to learn the ropes.
For myself, I am getting better and I like the challenge most of the time, but this is not path for everyone. My wife would not have fared well starting out in my little boat and would likely have given up before she got past the learning curve. I also believe that it is easier to put a rank BEGINNER into a kayak than an OC1 just because of the symmetrical power of the double bladed paddle and the relative ease of learning to roll. Not to say that we should not pull people off the streets and teach them OC1, just be aware that it is a steep climb.
Back to the topic at hand. My advice is to not be afraid of a boat that is too forgiving if that is what allows you to learn and have fun. You can always sell it and move to something more aggressive, just make sure that whatever boat you buy fits you. Also, it can be nice to have a more forgiving boat for trying to move to harder water even after it becomes less challenging in the easy stuff.
A good many of the open boaters that I know have been in the sport long enough that they went through a progression of boats to get to where they are now. In some cases they were starting out in more challenging boats but many of them came from classic canoes or some of the older, larger WW canoes that were more forgiving. Many of them also came out of kayaks so they already knew how to read water and balance. The progression to shorter, edgier boats has increased the performance of the newer canoes but it has also made many of them harder to paddle for a newbie.
I personally saw some of this when I started transitioning from a big Prospector 15' (set up for solo) to my little 9'6" Stinkeye. My little boat is stable and not too edgy but it is short and getting it to move forward under power has been my biggest challenge. It's not too bad when there is not the need for a lot of torque in milder water but in bigger water it became all consuming trying to just not spin and everything else became too much to focus on. As Clarion put it, sensory overload. The difficulties that I was having were not the ones that were anticipated be most of the more experienced paddlers because they had developed a good forward stroke over a period of time and a series of canoes. There is something to be said for a boat that is less performance oriented and more forgiving when trying to learn the ropes.
For myself, I am getting better and I like the challenge most of the time, but this is not path for everyone. My wife would not have fared well starting out in my little boat and would likely have given up before she got past the learning curve. I also believe that it is easier to put a rank BEGINNER into a kayak than an OC1 just because of the symmetrical power of the double bladed paddle and the relative ease of learning to roll. Not to say that we should not pull people off the streets and teach them OC1, just be aware that it is a steep climb.
Back to the topic at hand. My advice is to not be afraid of a boat that is too forgiving if that is what allows you to learn and have fun. You can always sell it and move to something more aggressive, just make sure that whatever boat you buy fits you. Also, it can be nice to have a more forgiving boat for trying to move to harder water even after it becomes less challenging in the easy stuff.
~Aaron~
Just being willing to try is half the battle.
Just being willing to try is half the battle.
-
Todhunter
- Ridge Spirit Outfitting
- Posts: 768
- Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:42 am
- Location: Chattanooga, TN
I was a rank beginner when I started just over 2 years ago. Before then, my only canoe experience had been in the bow of a Discovery 169 on some Class I rivers about 3-4 times over a course of 10 years.
I had no desire to kayak. My first boat was a Dagger Encore. I paddled it about 5 times, then jumped in a Mohawk Maxim. Talk about a steep learning curve. But I wanted to progress, and progress I did. I learned how to swim and I learned how to paddle. Then I got a L'Edge, which is what I paddle now.
I'm not saying don't get a "beginner" boat if you're a rank beginner. It's what I did. But be prepared to look for another boat soon, because you will probably want to. You can either keep the beginner boat (let others borrow it, use it on harder runs, etc), or sell it (that's what I did). I quickly saw that I wanted a shorter, sportier boat, and was willing to pay the price of admission through the school of hard knocks and swims to progress my skills quickly. It was all about keeping a good attitude, even after losing the count of swims in one run (12+). I swam every named rapid on the Ocoee the first time I ran it, but I was smiling the whole time.
If you can handle the steep learning curve, get a sportier boat. If you want a gentler learning curve, get a more beginner oriented boat and slowly move up in the class of rapid and river you paddle.
I had no desire to kayak. My first boat was a Dagger Encore. I paddled it about 5 times, then jumped in a Mohawk Maxim. Talk about a steep learning curve. But I wanted to progress, and progress I did. I learned how to swim and I learned how to paddle. Then I got a L'Edge, which is what I paddle now.
I'm not saying don't get a "beginner" boat if you're a rank beginner. It's what I did. But be prepared to look for another boat soon, because you will probably want to. You can either keep the beginner boat (let others borrow it, use it on harder runs, etc), or sell it (that's what I did). I quickly saw that I wanted a shorter, sportier boat, and was willing to pay the price of admission through the school of hard knocks and swims to progress my skills quickly. It was all about keeping a good attitude, even after losing the count of swims in one run (12+). I swam every named rapid on the Ocoee the first time I ran it, but I was smiling the whole time.
If you can handle the steep learning curve, get a sportier boat. If you want a gentler learning curve, get a more beginner oriented boat and slowly move up in the class of rapid and river you paddle.
Matt Todhunter
Ridge Spirit Outfitting - Custom Bulkhead Canoe Saddles
Ridge Spirit Outfitting - Custom Bulkhead Canoe Saddles