C-Forum

Gonzo-does that 70 footer come with/attached to/part of the waist belt? Or do you have it rigged up somehow? Sounds useful

This is just from a google search.

http://www.wildernesssafetysystems.com/watergear.html

Joe, the bag attaches to the waist belt with a strap and guick release buckle system, similar to a chest harness on a rescue PFD. One pull of the quick release and the bag is free from the waist belt. The waist belt also has built in attachment loops for binerrs. Very nice, although not cheap piece of gear. They last a long time, mine is 6 year old and still going strong. Most guides here at Esprit have been using theirs for many seasons.
http://www.hooligangear.com/index.php?pr=Hooligan_Gear

TGG!

I have a 70' sure grip 3/8" rope from H2Orescuegear.com that I wear on a belt with a quick release while teaching swiftwater rescue. It is compact enough that I can wear it above my spray skirt or around my waist while open boating and even doesn't get in the way while swimming. It's a bear to stuff, but really nice when scouting a rapid because it's at an arms length at all times. The belt, just pull the quick release and deploy the bag. The belt stays around the waist. Wonderfully designed, with a glow stick attachment point on the bag for night rescues.
http://h2orescuegear.com/rescue-gear/sharpshooter/

Has anyone on the list experienced a real time situation where a death, serious personal injury or even a close call occurred because a throw bag with poly rope was used instead of spectra or other high end rope? Boat pins, gear retrievals or hypothetical situations from your SWR class don't count.

Polypro floats, which is a plus to me for general throwing/wrangling of swimmers. Spectra is stronger, more abrasion resistant, and has less stretch which qualify it better for more bonafide rescue situations.

FWIW, I wear a Guardian with 55' of 1/4" poly for throws, I carry this all the time.

I carry a separate bag of larger rescue line stowed with a 'biner & pulley almost all the time.

cheajack wrote:Has anyone on the list experienced a real time situation where a death, serious personal injury or even a close call occurred because a throw bag with poly rope was used instead of spectra or other high end rope? Boat pins, gear retrievals or hypothetical situations from your SWR class don't count.

I was in situations where without a spectra rope we would never have been able to get a wrapped open boat off the rock. Had boat broaches and had we not had spectra ropes, we would not have gotten the boat off.
A bag with 70ft spectra ropes covers all the bases, yes it's a substantial chunk of money, but so worth it. Everyone I know who has ever taken an SRT course of sorts switches to spectra immediately afterwards. Buying a poly rope is trying to safe money on the wrong piece of gear.

TGG!

4 years ago we had the Real thing rescue. The short story is that an out of boat paddler had his ankle trapped in the fork of a small 6" underwater tree midstream.
Early and smart midriver moves by Yarnnelboat stabilized the victim by the time I had made it back upriver to the event. A Z drag had already been established onto the log. Time was becoming the dominating factor and we had to commit to pulling the log off of its rock.

Now for my point: the Z drag rope established was 1/4 poly pro, 800 lbs breaking strength brand new and the rope wasn't new.
I did the math and with the necessary knots it probably had 400 lbs strength. I should have replaced it but under stress and time limits I didn't. That was a mistake.

We got away with it but the next week I bought 1/4 Spectra and now carry it on my waist and carry the basic makings of an efficient Zdrag in my PFD.
I also own a 3/8's Spectra.
The 1/4 Poly is now only used on the back of the canoe top deck for self rescue swim ins on 2 boat trips or as a throw rope

This happened after 15 yrs+ of paddlin but it could have happened after 1 year.
We held an good group post analysis and my take away was:

Buy Good rescue gear early.
Take a Swiftwater course.
Practice with your gear; speed and skill counts as much as owning the right stuff.
Encourage new paddlers to learn Rescue so on the day they will be able to contribute in some way. On the day is a poor time to teach.

My apologies for the High Drama, but Cheapjack asked for "Real thing" experience and that's mine. You can't have seen everything, sometimes somebody else's experience is the only class you might be able to attend.

Why doesn't boat pins and gear retrieval count?

Get a sissy rope if you want. Their small and cheap. That's why all the kayakers have them. Someday when you need adult-sized throw rope, you can explain to your friend/victim that you saved $80 and your bag is "usually" it's good enough-.

Thanks for the great input, got me headed in the right direction! To be sure this is not a piece of gear I would want to be the weak link. I am planning on attending a Swiftwater Rescue Course within a year.

Since the incident Einar referred to, I've had a chip on my shoulder about making a clear distiction between "throw ropes" and "rescue ropes". It's something I wish the paddling industry would do better at. In my opinion, when somebody makes a post about "rescue ropes", small diameter poly throw ropes need not be mentioned!!

As I've posted on here before, each have their place, but it's important that people know which are which! A group with a bunch of little 1/4" poly ropes may be able to bag swimmers, but they shouldn't go off thinking they are well equiped for rescues if somebody gets into serious trouble.

Our incident was on a class II+ or III rapid, not serious gnar, and it wasn't the weakest paddler or the hardest spot on the run, and it wasn't an obvious hazard. Point is, it can happen, and equipment matters. It may not happen often, but you could need a Z-drag or a long rope to save somebody's life, as we did. Stretchy rope just isn't good to work with in those situations.

If you take a SWR course (as we've all done since that rescue), I bet/hope they are not using little poly ropes. That should tell us something.

Pat.

p.s. I just got a Level 6 "Dragonfly Pro" rescue rope, but no reviews yet.

p.p.s. The other thing I changed after that incident was carrying a biner, pulley and prusik on my PFD - during the rescue I had to ditch my boat to get up onto a rock, and along with my boat went my stowed drybag and all my gear.

Oh yes - strong rope - by all means - mos def - go all the way - super strong.

..... still at 50 feet (unless it's just your throwing bag) it's hardly worth bragging about. If you were to actually have to tie in to a boat, or person on one end... and then have to tie onto a anchor on the other... (especially without a couple prussic loops)... and then set up the most of simple z-drag....

you would maybe be able to get 25 feet from that big rock or tree. In a lot of cases it would have better to have brought that old 75-100 feet of 1/4 inch poly... which you left in favor of being CBoats politically correct.

It's more a matter of dam if you do, and dam if you don't... Just by all means, have one with you regardless of length, test, or age. You never know when you may need to rescue some standing up in the water fool.

It's not really about "politcal correctness" or ropes du jour, it's simply about using equipment - life saving equiment in this case - for the purpose it was designed for.

Stretchy little poly rope was not designed for use in rescue systems using mechanical advantage, simple as that. If the manufacturers don't recommend it, I'm happy to go with that.

Yeah, length is a factor too, sure - how wide are your rivers and how plentiful are anchors? Lots for groups to think about. There's no right or wrong, there's just knowing what gear suits whatever situations & solutions your group anticipates. But that takes some thinking & talking.

Pat.

As asked:

I have saved (yes - saved) and brought back the otherwise for their folks back home. This is not the theoretical, and not just about retrieval of someone's gear or pulling a downed tree aside.

It is often the case that minimal force is required; as it is also the case that sometimes the force required is extraordinary. The far greater concern is to be proactive and have something just in case. I have been on trips with world class explorers that carried 1/4 poly, who rapped down 100 feet water falls and never checked up. Would I - No not rapping, but maybe hand over hand. I have a 100feet of 5/16" dyneema spectra in a drybag, and a quick accessible throw bag. I always wear one parabiner (it holds my car keys) and a prussik loop, and have another loop plus some biners in the dry bag.

However the opinion was asked, and re-asked would people with actually knowledge step forward. To that I still answer, to ME the most important part is having enough rope, over having one too short to do the job. Yes they can be tied together. I simply do not trust others to have that, of which so many do not often have. Plus - it often takes multiple lines, as often someone has to go out and help. So how many does that leave, when one of three is under water? And in a worst case scenario, how long will it take (to merely gather it all), when you only have a few fleeting seconds ?

And yes, I do find it politically correct to assume just having something - will make the failed rescuer feel better at the end of the day (NOT).

So in the example mentioned by Einar and Yarnell, did the 1/4" poly rope fail and if so did it lead to more harm to the victim or rescurers? Or did it work but cause all involved to start thinking. I'm not advocating going cheap on rescue gear. I will never carry 1/4" rope. I think new poly rope is better than old rope of any kind. I am just having trouble understanding why high breaking strength rope is needed for anything other than pinned boats or gear. The paddler is the important thing to get rescued. You can always go back after the water goes down to get the boat.